Free Republic
Browse · Search
News/Activism
Topics · Post Article

Skip to comments.

ABC Blames Fear of Conservatives for Blocking Pro-Inclusion Ad
MRC ^ | Dec 3, 2004 | Brent Baker

Posted on 12/07/2004 9:02:29 AM PST by Tumbleweed_Connection

The left-wing United Church of Christ (UCC) put out a press release complaining about how their ad denigrating other churches, which showed bouncers, in front of a church, turning away a gay couple, a Hispanic man, a black woman and a guy in a wheelchair, was rejected by the three biggest broadcast networks, and ABC jumped to the church's defense without, of course, mentioning the church's ideology while repeatedly referring to "Christian conservatives." Peter Jennings seem befuddled by why anyone would oppose the ad: "Why do the major networks refuse to run an ad by a church that welcomes gays and lesbians?" Jennings described the UCC in the most benign terms: "It affirms the belief that Christians did not always have to agree in order to live together in communion. And the church very publicly yesterday asked why the major television networks won't run an ad in which the church makes the point that everyone is welcome."

Dean Harris asserted that "both church leaders and First Amendment lawyers say they suspect what's motivating the networks here is fear of Christian conservatives." A professor then ominously warned about "the power of the right in America to chill and deter free speech."

In the morning on Thursday, Good Morning America's Diane Sawyer cued up a UCC representative to explain the ad's purpose while an exasperated Sawyer challenged an opponent's position: "A lot of people have argued that Jesus himself included women in a shocking way, he associated with prostitutes at the time -- it was a shocking idea. What's wrong with this ad?"

Some cable shows on Thursday picked up on the controversy, including MSNBC's Hardball and FNC's Hannity & Colmes. A Thursday Washington Post story spun in favor of the UCC: "CBS, NBC Turn Down United Church of Christ's Ad Touting Its Inclusiveness." For the December 2 Post story: www.washingtonpost.com

ABC won't air it either, but will run it on its ABC Family cable channel, and Fox and a bunch of cable channels have accepted it.

The networks regularly reject ads they deem "too controversial," and many conservatives would agree that they should carry the UCC ad as well as others ads on public policy matters, but the bias from ABC News comes in considering the rejection of this anti-conservative ad to be so newsworthy and blaming "Christian conservatives," not the networks, for suppressing free speech.

The TV ad opens with a scene of bouncers, white men with buzz cuts and wearing black T-shirts, standing in front of church steps with a rope line as they say, "No, step aside please" to two apparently gay white men, allow a white family to pass, say "no way, not you" to a Hispanic man, say "I don't think so" to Hispanic woman and "no" to guy in wheelchair as they hold up their hands in front of him. Then, over upbeat music, this text on screen: "Jesus didn't turn people away," followed by "Neither do we." An announcer over happy shots of people of various races and sexual orientations: "The United Church of Christ. No matter who you are or where you are on life's journey, you're welcome here."

To view the ad and the UCC's press releases about it: www.stillspeaking.com

As taken down by the MRC's Brad Wilmouth, Jennings introduced the December 2 World News Tonight story:

"We're going to take 'A Closer Look' this evening at what appears to be another battle in the culture wars. The United Church of Christ was founded in 1957 as the union of several different Christian traditions. It affirms the belief that Christians did not always have to agree in order to live together in communion. And the church very publicly yesterday asked why the major television networks won't run an ad in which the church makes the point that everyone is welcome. We asked ABC's Dan Harris to look further."

Bouncer in ad: "No. Step aside, please." Dan Harris: "In the ad, bouncers man a velvet rope outside an unnamed church."

Bouncer: "Not you."

Harris: "Turning away gays, a Latino, a black girl and a handicapped man."

Clip of ad: "The United Church of Christ, no matter who you are or where you are on life's journey, you're welcome here."

Harris: "The President of the church says he's just trying to extend an extravagant welcome to those who feel excluded elsewhere."

Professor John Thomas, President of the United Church of Christ: "We're simply offering a basic message: Jesus never turned anyone away. Neither do we."

Harris: "But all three major networks are refusing to run the ad. ABC, as a matter of policy, doesn't air religious ads. NBC, in a letter to the church, called the ad 'too controversial.' And CBS told the church, 'Because the commercial touches on the exclusion of gay couples' and because the President recently came out in support of a constitutional ban on gay marriage, 'this spot is unacceptable for broadcast on the networks.' The head of the church points out that the spot makes no mention of gay marriage. Both church leaders and First Amendment lawyers say they suspect what's motivating the networks here is fear of Christian conservatives."

Professor Peter Rubin, Georgetown University Law Center: "I think that the power of the right in America to chill and deter free speech is as effective as governmental censorship."

Harris: "It is true that many Christian conservatives find the ad offensive. They say it falsely implies that they turn people away from their churches. Further, they say it sends a message that homosexuality, which they consider a sin, should be accepted."

Albert Mohler, President of the Southern Baptist Theological Seminary: "The church is made up by sinners saved by grace, not sinners who obstinately say I'm going to continue in my sin because I love it."

Harris concluded with another warning: "There is some debate among Christian conservatives about whether the networks should ban the ad. As one leading evangelical said, 'If they restrict them today, they'll restrict us tomorrow.' Dan Harris, ABC News, New York."

In the morning, the MRC's Jessica Anderson noticed, GMA devoted a 7:30am half hour segment to the subject. Diane Sawyer announced: "Let's tackle now a commercial that is sparking major controversy. It's for the United Church of Christ, and the television networks are refusing to run it. The ad briefly shows a gay couple -- and you're going to take a close look at this at the top and you'll see it there -- and NBC and CBS say they've rejected the ad because of a long-standing policy of not running commercials that take sides on controversial issues. ABC has a policy of not running religious ads, so it's a bit different. But right now, we'll begin by taking a look at the ad."

After running the entire ad, Sawyer continued: "Now, the ad, by the way, has been accepted for broadcast by a number of cable channels. Joining us now from Washington, the Reverend Robert Chase, director of communications for the United Church of Christ, which put the ad on the air, and from Louisville, Kentucky, the Reverend R. Albert Mohler, President of the Southern Baptist Theological Seminary, who does object to this ad big time. Let's begin with you, if I can, Reverend Chase. What's the point of doing this ad? What are you trying to get done?"

Rev. Chase: "Well, this ad grows out of a two-year effort, Diane, within our church...and what we're trying to say is you're welcome here, no matter who you are or where you are on life's journey."

Sawyer: "So you're trying to recruit the people who have not been coming to church. Let's go to you Doctor Mohler, because what is wrong with that? A lot of people have argued that Jesus himself included women in a shocking way, he associated with prostitutes at the time -- it was a shocking idea. What's wrong with this ad?"

Dr. Albert Mohler: "Well, in the first place, it's a piece of masterful propaganda, but it's a diabolical misrepresentation of Christianity, and Jesus Christ did indeed come to seek and to save the lost, but as he said to the woman caught in adultery, 'go and sin no more.' He did not invite persons to stay in a sinful lifestyle. Rather, he came to save us from our sins and to make us what we otherwise could not be, and that is victorious over all the sins that entrap us. Homosexuality is just one of those, but certainly the one addressed in this commercial."

Sawyer: "Well, first of all, let me just say this, are you saying that you don't want gays in your church?"

Dr. Mohler: "No, our church is made up, like every true church, of sinners saved by grace, but we are not to be left in our sin, but are to come out of what the Scripture clearly identifies as sin. The apostle Paul spoke to the church at Corinth listing things, including homosexuality, and said 'such were some of you.' We're all sinners, but we cannot remain in our sin and we can't just bless a lifestyle by saying 'we accept it' when the Scripture clearly condemns it as sin."

Sawyer: "Reverend Chase?"

Rev. Chase: "Clearly allegorical" since no churches have bouncers.

Sawyer: "Doctor Mohler, didn't Jesus reserve his worst anger for the money-changers? Are money-changers also not welcome in the church?"

Dr. Mohler: "Well, they would not be welcome to remain as money-changers any more than Jesus would just bless any kind of sin...." Homosexuals welcome, but to hear word of God.

Sawyer: "Reverend Chase, surprised that the networks turned this down? That is to say, NBC and CBS, and ABC, I believe, is going to run the ad on the family channel."

Rev. Chase: Yes, ad ran last Spring in six test markets.


TOPICS: News/Current Events
KEYWORDS: abc; ads; mrc; religion; ucc
Navigation: use the links below to view more comments.
first previous 1-2021-40 last
To: Tumbleweed_Connection

I wonder what the UCC response would be if someone put an "ad" on the 'net showing UCC bouncers high-fiving and backslapping pedophiles, passing a doobie, bowing to Fidel Castro and Kim Jung Il as they are passed thru, ..., while turning away people in military uniform, anyone wearing a Republican or "W in 04" button, a hunter/sportsman, ...?


21 posted on 12/07/2004 9:57:53 AM PST by optimistically_conservative (The soldier, be he friend or foe, is charged with the protection of the weak and the unarmed.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: Gingersnap
The only thing controversial about this ad is the fact that UCC is explicitly slamming Christians who have different views on sin.

UCC seems to be ignoring repeated Biblical directives to live in harmony with other believers. Rather than delivering a completely positive message, their ad uses negative imagery (e.g., white, crewcut bouncers) and creates disharmony, which seems very much at odds with the spirit of unity we are instructed to foster. Causing the Body of Christ to be at war with itself will not find favor in God's eyes.

22 posted on 12/07/2004 10:06:04 AM PST by macbee ("Never interrupt your enemy when he is making a mistake." - Napoleon Bonaparte)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 12 | View Replies]

To: knick knack
It is simply stating that all other churches are open only to white families!

You read too much into the ad .... they are 'simply' stating they are more open than others and using bouncers and velvet ropes to exagerate their points.

23 posted on 12/07/2004 10:10:56 AM PST by AgThorn (Go go Bush!! But don't turn your back on America with "immigrant amnesty")
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 19 | View Replies]

To: AgThorn
... and using bouncers and velvet ropes to exagerate their points.

I agree. I think the ad should be run. It would be fun to watch a denominational ad war exaggerating the UCC position.

Another fun add would be to have homeless sleeping on the church pews in UCC churches and the congregation sitting down next to them in their Sunday best clothes - exaggerating their discomfort.

24 posted on 12/07/2004 10:41:27 AM PST by optimistically_conservative (The soldier, be he friend or foe, is charged with the protection of the weak and the unarmed.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 23 | View Replies]

To: Tumbleweed_Connection
"Turning away gays, a Latino, a black girl and a handicapped man." A contention of the article is Jesus never turned anyone away.

There are two levels of Christ never turning one away that need to be considered in scripture the first would be those who were with him personally or disciples of Jesus

Jesus did not appeal to everyone to be his disciple.

Matthew 8:21-22 And another of his disciples said unto him, Lord, suffer me first to go and bury my father. 22 But Jesus said unto him, Follow me; and let the dead bury their dead.

Luke 14 26 If any man come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple.

Luke 14 33 So likewise, whosoever he be of you that forsaketh not all that he hath, he cannot be my disciple.

Mark 2 15 And it came to pass, that, as Jesus sat at meat in his house, many publicans and sinners sat also together with Jesus and his disciples: for there were many, and they followed him. 16 And when the scribes and Pharisees saw him eat with publicans and sinners, they said unto his disciples, How is it that he eateth and drinketh with publicans and sinners? 17 When Jesus heard it, he saith unto them, They that are whole have no need of the physician, but they that are sick: I came not to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.

Matthew 23:13-35 13 But woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye shut up the kingdom of heaven against men: for ye neither go in yourselves, neither suffer ye them that are entering to go in. 14 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye devour widows' houses, and for a pretence make long prayer: therefore ye shall receive the greater damnation. 15 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye compass sea and land to make one proselyte, and when he is made, ye make him twofold more the child of hell than yourselves. 16 Woe unto you, ye blind guides, which say, Whosoever shall swear by the temple, it is nothing; but whosoever shall swear by the gold of the temple, he is a debtor! 17 Ye fools and blind: for whether is greater, the gold, or the temple that sanctifieth the gold? 18 And, Whosoever shall swear by the altar, it is nothing; but whosoever sweareth by the gift that is upon it, he is guilty. 19 Ye fools and blind: for whether is greater, the gift, or the altar that sanctifieth the gift? 20 Whoso therefore shall swear by the altar, sweareth by it, and by all things thereon. 21 And whoso shall swear by the temple, sweareth by it, and by him that dwelleth therein. 22 And he that shall swear by heaven, sweareth by the throne of God, and by him that sitteth thereon. 23 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone. 24 Ye blind guides, which strain at a gnat, and swallow a camel. 25 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye make clean the outside of the cup and of the platter, but within they are full of extortion and excess. 26 Thou blind Pharisee, cleanse first that which is within the cup and platter, that the outside of them may be clean also. 27 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye are like unto whited sepulchres, which indeed appear beautiful outward, but are within full of dead men's bones, and of all uncleanness. 28 Even so ye also outwardly appear righteous unto men, but within ye are full of hypocrisy and iniquity. 29 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! because ye build the tombs of the prophets, and garnish the sepulchres of the righteous, 30 And say, If we had been in the days of our fathers, we would not have been partakers with them in the blood of the prophets. 31 Wherefore ye be witnesses unto yourselves, that ye are the children of them which killed the prophets. 32 Fill ye up then the measure of your fathers. 33 Ye serpents, ye generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell? 34 Wherefore, behold, I send unto you prophets, and wise men, and scribes: and some of them ye shall kill and crucify; and some of them shall ye scourge in your synagogues, and persecute them from city to city: 35 That upon you may come all the righteous blood shed upon the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel unto the blood of Zacharias son of Barachias, whom ye slew between the temple and the altar.

And even with far greater import Jesus said that not all, not most, those who shall desire to enter the kingdom of heaven and shall not.

Matthew 7:14 Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.

Matthew 7:21-23 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

Matthew 21:28-45 But what think ye? A certain man had two sons; and he came to the first, and said, Son, go work to day in my vineyard. He answered and said, I will not: but afterward he repented, and went. And he came to the second, and said likewise. And he answered and said, I go, sir: and went not. Whether of them twain did the will of his father? They say unto him, The first. Jesus saith unto them, Verily I say unto you, That the publicans and the harlots go into the kingdom of God before you. For John came unto you in the way of righteousness, and ye believed him not: but the publicans and the harlots believed him: and ye, when ye had seen it, repented not afterward, that ye might believe him. Hear another parable: There was a certain householder, which planted a vineyard, and hedged it round about, and digged a winepress in it, and built a tower, and let it out to husbandmen, and went into a far country: And when the time of the fruit drew near, he sent his servants to the husbandmen, that they might receive the fruits of it. 35 And the husbandmen took his servants, and beat one, and killed another, and stoned another. Again, he sent other servants more than the first: and they did unto them likewise. But last of all he sent unto them his son, saying, They will reverence my son. But when the husbandmen saw the son, they said among themselves, This is the heir; come, let us kill him, and let us seize on his inheritance. 39 And they caught him, and cast him out of the vineyard, and slew him. When the lord therefore of the vineyard cometh, what will he do unto those husbandmen? 41 They say unto him, He will miserably destroy those wicked men, and will let out his vineyard unto other husbandmen, which shall render him the fruits in their seasons. Jesus saith unto them, Did ye never read in the scriptures, The stone which the builders rejected, the same is become the head of the corner: this is the Lord's doing, and it is marvellous in our eyes? Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof. And whosoever shall fall on this stone shall be broken: but on whomsoever it shall fall, it will grind him to powder. And when the chief priests and Pharisees had heard his parables, they perceived that he spake of them.

There are many other scriptures in the gospels that point Christ and Heaven not being all inclussive as all the liberals would imply -- now the liberals are a religious folk in theirown manner. All these news commentators are also -- these are some of the modern pharisees they poke at christ they poke at God they poke at beleivers that are less than themselves and they use an unrightous meaurung stick of their traditions and the teachings that approve their personal standards. These poeple have stood aside watching millions of babies being aborted, they have allowed christians to be massacred around the world with no cry they have let people who were in freedom be taken over by muslim and communist governments and not lifted a single finger to save any one. They rejoice in sin they rejoice in iniquity they rejoice in the defeat of Christ and the church -- these people are by definition pharisees.

25 posted on 12/07/2004 10:46:56 AM PST by Rocketman
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: Tumbleweed_Connection

I've seen the ad. It reads to me like "We're the UCC, the non-racist church."


26 posted on 12/07/2004 10:48:34 AM PST by Petronski (WARNING: Persons denying the existence of Robots may be Robots themselves.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: Tumbleweed_Connection

I've seen the ad. It reads to me like "We're the UCC, the non-racist church."

Which begs the question...where are all these 'racist' churches?



As for the UCC, I guess they've taken the white out to those passages in the Old AND New Testament condemning as sinful homosexual acts. Not condemning queers, but condemning queer acts.

So, where are the similar passages condemning use of a wheelchair or condemning being black or hispanic (he asks rhetorically)?


27 posted on 12/07/2004 10:52:31 AM PST by Petronski (WARNING: Persons denying the existence of Robots may be Robots themselves.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: Tumbleweed_Connection
The article repeats it's self. It is poorly written.

Aside from that, FOX accepted the commercial. It's pretty clear that the reason the other networks rejected the ad is because it is religious, not because it is controversial.
28 posted on 12/07/2004 10:58:04 AM PST by monday
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: AgThorn

"You read too much into the ad .... "

I'm a little surprised at the amount of venom towards the ad that is present on this thread? I don't see anything wrong with the ad. My church isn't UCC but I am not aware of it ever turning anyone away. I assumed all churches were similar in that respect. Perhaps I was wrong?

To hear all the complainers on this thread, most of the churches they attend, do indeed turn people away.


29 posted on 12/07/2004 11:07:46 AM PST by monday
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 23 | View Replies]

To: bluebunny

"Gay people are incredibly annoying. Every last one of them"

I agree with you, but some women like them. Could you explain please?


30 posted on 12/07/2004 11:10:21 AM PST by monday
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 13 | View Replies]

To: Tumbleweed_Connection

To liberals, people of faith might as well live in another country. After the election, its amusing to watch ABC struggle to understand why people who embrace traditional values reject the Left's social permissiveness. As The Gipper used to be fond of remarking, "there they go again!" Peter Jennings and Co. don't get it and for the record, neither do the Unitarians.


31 posted on 12/07/2004 11:14:19 AM PST by goldstategop (In Memory Of A Dearly Beloved Friend Who Lives On In My Heart Forever)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: Tumbleweed_Connection
The UCC is almost entirely composed of upper middle class lily white liberals. Most of the mainstream denominations are like that.

If you want to see a truly diverse congregation, you usually have to go to an evangelical church.

32 posted on 12/07/2004 11:14:54 AM PST by colorado tanker (The People Have Spoken)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: johniegrad

And the networks won't run religious ads! Gee what country are these professors living in? I'd hazard a guess television network executives are more afraid of the ACLU and AUSH than they are of religious Christians.


33 posted on 12/07/2004 11:16:38 AM PST by goldstategop (In Memory Of A Dearly Beloved Friend Who Lives On In My Heart Forever)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 3 | View Replies]

To: monday

I would concur. I am most definitely NOT a UCC'r either, and my church does NOT turn anyone away, but the ad is really harmless as a means for this church to recruit saying they are more open than others ...

It should/could contribute to some good dialogue as to what their openness really is, since I do object to their allowing/encouraging active homosexuals to leadership positions in thier church. THIS I object to. But I cannot turn that bible based objection to an objection to the ad itself.


34 posted on 12/07/2004 12:59:46 PM PST by AgThorn (Go go Bush!! But don't turn your back on America with "immigrant amnesty")
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 29 | View Replies]

To: AgThorn
Mainline Renewal Leaders Call for UCC to Pull Television Commercial
35 posted on 12/07/2004 7:23:13 PM PST by optimistically_conservative (The soldier, be he friend or foe, is charged with the protection of the weak and the unarmed.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 34 | View Replies]

To: optimistically_conservative

Interesting ... the only churches that should be offended by such an ad, are those churches where perhaps 'the shoe fits". For churches to ask for this ad to be pulled is rediculous. If the ad pointed at Catholics, Methodists or some particular church group, then it would be bad. But it doesn't. It 'implies' that the UCC is 'more' open than everyone else by method of exageration.

Churches that are most offended should start to ask why.


36 posted on 12/07/2004 7:30:05 PM PST by AgThorn (Go go Bush!! But don't turn your back on America with "immigrant amnesty")
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 35 | View Replies]

To: AgThorn
It 'implies' that the UCC is 'more' open than everyone else by method of exageration. Right. We don't beat our wives at our church.
37 posted on 12/07/2004 7:40:47 PM PST by optimistically_conservative (The soldier, be he friend or foe, is charged with the protection of the weak and the unarmed.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 36 | View Replies]

To: optimistically_conservative

exactly ....


38 posted on 12/07/2004 7:42:33 PM PST by AgThorn (Go go Bush!! But don't turn your back on America with "immigrant amnesty")
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 37 | View Replies]

To: johniegrad

"the power of the right in America to chill and deter free speech."

"It seems professors have become incredibly stupid over the years."

Dishonest too. This liar knows full well that the purpose of the ad, AND its pre-planned "refusal" by the networks was to publicize the "chilling" effect of the RedState Right now that the eeevil Bush has siezed power once again.

Like the dance ABC did around "Saving Private Ryan," this whole episode is a choreographed dramatic charade to slyly smear and slander the good Christian Americans who voted for GW Bush.

If I'm wrong, then the question is, how could an ad that didn't run, instantly turn into such a well-publicized, coordinated and carefully presented message?

The further evidence is that CBS apparently appended an editorial comment about the Constitutional Amendment in defense of marriage, implying that such an amendment even in the proposal stages, was a source of fear and censorship and the end of civilization as we know it.

I didn't believe this non sequitur even was committed, at first, but now understand it to have been a typical bit of CBS overkill, capitalizing on an artificially created opportunity.


39 posted on 12/07/2004 7:59:13 PM PST by hinckley buzzard
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 3 | View Replies]

To: monday

The UCC ad is offensive because it reinforces the Christophobic propaganda of the mainstream media. Imagine McDonald's launching an ad campaign that said "Come to our place; our burgers don't have E Coli."


40 posted on 12/10/2004 4:57:04 PM PST by Wife of D28Man
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 29 | View Replies]


Navigation: use the links below to view more comments.
first previous 1-2021-40 last

Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.

Free Republic
Browse · Search
News/Activism
Topics · Post Article

FreeRepublic, LLC, PO BOX 9771, FRESNO, CA 93794
FreeRepublic.com is powered by software copyright 2000-2008 John Robinson