KIEV: HANDOVER OF POWER

Sky News ^ | November 23, 2004

[kupia_kummi]

A peaceful handover of power has reportedly been agreed in the Ukraine after protesters clashed with anti-riot police outside the president's headquarters.  

Tensions in the capital Kiev reached breaking point as tens of thousands of demonstrators surrounded the HQ.

They had been called on to march by opposition leader Viktor Yushchenko.  

He and his supporters believed the presidential election, which took place at the weekend, was rigged.  

According to the poll results, Kremlin-backed Prime Minister Viktor Yanukovych won the presidency.  

But after calls from outgoing president Leonid Kuchma for talks between the two sides, Mr Yanukovych stepped aside.  

Mr Yushchenko will now become president, it has been reported.  

The turmoil in the Ukraine followed a day of claims and counter-claims about the disputed presidential election, which has been condemned internationally as not being "free or fair".

[Truth666]

the election - with paper trail, transparent ballot-boxes and ballots manually counted by representatives of EACH candidate at each polling station, immediately after votes were casted.
So any candidate claiming there was fraud must provide one of these facts - the name of the precincts that his representative refused to sign - the sums of precincts for a particular district that don't match the sums provided by the electoral commission
Yushchenko provided NONE of these.

[evad]

>>Yes... Democracy has always been mob rule<<

Come on now...there's a difference between majority rule and mob rule.

[Truth666]

I dind't find any source naming polling stations where irregularities did happen, so that a representatives of Yutschenk refused to sign the count at that polling station.

[Tolik]

Is Yushchenko the real deal or another Soviet stooge?

Here are some thoughts from my friend in Kyiv (the quote is from e-mail I received about a month ago). He is an economist.

Why does he [the author of article about Ukraine we were discussing] think that Ukraine is similar to CEE rather than to Russia? I would disagree, and the course of events (determined objectively, not by the person of a leader!!!) confirms this. Such statements are typical for the superficial and often arrogant Western analysts that do not look deep enough, ignore even the existing literature, and then come with unwise, sometimes really foolish, and often harmful conclusions. I can refer similar kind of statement made by Robert Kravchuk, the author of quite famous book on Ukrainian political economy, who claims Kuchma to be a reformer. Both positions are simply wrong, and the respective conclusions are just BS.

So, if the Criminal wins, the future is quite clear, although I would certainly hate it. If Yushchenko wins, it may go different ways -- there are contradicting flows in his closest circle, and himself he is quite controversial. The remnants of archaic consciousness are generally incompatible with economic liberalism. For sure, he will try to restrain the rent seeking, especially by his current opponents (I'm much less sure about his allies). But the respective policy can vary from populism (with anti-oligarch inclinations, protectionism, inflation, etc. under the slogan "there should be no riches!") -- you may call it "revolution" if you will, to genuine economic liberalization (mostly the opposite, with the emphasis on entrepreneurship, transparency, and property rights). In a sense, the latter extreme can be called a revolution too, although it sill not look so.
Also, this is unclear whether Yu. is not going just to replace Kuchma in his role of arbiter -- why didn't he try to support the political reform and shape it according to the democratic principles?

There are still 4 definite points why I vote for him.

1. We need to stop the Criminal. By no means I can trust such a president.
2. Under Yu. the opposition, most probably, will survive; so the plurality of political and business interests remain. Thus, we, most probably, will have some choice. In the other case it is much less probable.
3. He has made a clear political commitment for going West. Among other factors, it will constrain the methods he will use, the policies he will conduct, and so on.
4. He seeks public support, as a normal politician should. This brings a threat of populism, but there is no other way of building a political nation but making politicians dependent on the people. And no other way of countervailing the vested interests of rent seekers .

I've got an impression that he has a lot of "common sense", if not has lost it in the fight (especially after the poisoning). If I'm right, he barely will make any harsh actions. But, of course, the policy, and especially the way of policy making, will improve -- at least, I hope so basing on the experience of his Prime Minister tenure. Those times it led to a silent revolution in the economic institutions that spurred current growth.

Hope, I answered.

Best,

VD
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[Tolik]

I like the name "Chestnut Revolution" for Kyiv.

I have no idea who came up with it, but I read it first here: http://www.nationalreview.com/comment/gvosdev200411230830.asp

[Rocky Mountain Mama]

"While most of the people on the streets are no doubt genuine, both Yanukovych and Yushchenko are completely controlled by Moscow IMO. This is pure theater designed to dupe the West into believing the Ukraine and Moscow are NOT working together as one."

But why did they try to kill Yushchenko twice AND steal the election from him if he really is Moscow's guy? That makes no sense at all.

[Rocky Mountain Mama]

When I was in the Ukraine, the main streets and squares of the cities -- which were beautiful, very unlike the grey concrete oppressive feeling I got from Moscow -- were all lined with gorgeous mature chestnut trees, everywhere. The chestnut trees were one of my strongest memories, besides the beautiful people.

[bgarid]

I think somebody wants to divide the Ukraine.

Obviously, Donbass or Crimea will never agree to have a president who is "CIA agent" (or "husband of CIA agent", if there is any difference...)

And similarly, Western Ukraine and Kiev will never accept "Donetsk gangster" as a president.

Given such a choice of candidates, the only possible result of this election is a breakup of the country and civil war.

Maybe this is exactly what Moscow/Washington/Brussels/Soros (pick your choice) wants to happen to the Ukraine...

[twigs]

I personally think this is mixed news. From what I've seen, the elections were probably rigged and this man is the proper leader. But it does overturn election results because the results were different from the exit polls. The left wing conspiratorial nuts in this country are just as convinced that Kerry won this election as ethnic Ukrainians are that their man won their election. With world-wide demonstrations that the elections be overturned (there should be verification IMO that it was rigged), what's to stop citizens of the world from doing the same thing when the next conservative Republican is elected here? This could be a vision of things to come here. The fact that this election really did seem to be rigged and we are actually improving our elections to make that much more difficult will be a lost distinction to many.

[b2stealth]

The choice is between:

1. Yushenko
- Ukrainian nationalist, patriot (conservative comparing to USSR-like liberals)
- Never in prison
- "Soft" guy


2. Yanukovich
- Has been convicted of crimes 3 times
- Including RAPE
- Been to prison many times
- All convictions were "cleared" a year before elections by acting goverment
- People think he is a head of Donetsk Mob, "Mafia"
- His mob operates in Russia (ties to russian goverment)
- Putin supports him to get Ukraine out of the West (NATO, US and EU) and in to newUSSR (Russia).

So the choice is Patriot vs Criminal

Goverment were doing tricks like putting people on a bus with absentee ballots and driving 100 people around town to vote multiple times..
Boxes full of ballots for proRUSSIAN Yanukovich.
This is how they got 49% even if 70% of people in ukraine are fed up with USSR style goverment and RUSSIA..

[Rocky Mountain Mama]

I think there is more support for Yushchenko in the eastern part of the country than the vote totals show. Did you read the e-mail posted earlier about the coerced voting for Putin's guy? If true, the support for him is likely soft, and I hope division and civil war will be prevented. Ukrainians don't want to be a satellite Moscow state; I don't think Ukrainians will split or go to war to support the guy who was a universally despised criminal.

[Jmouse007]

Your assessment is false, I have been teaching here in the Ukraine for three months and observed the election and the aftermath first hand. My Youschenko won the election, the government i.e. President Kuchma and his cronies did not like the results so they committed widespread fraud and to cover their tracks they would not allow independent observers for this second round of the presidential election. This was NOT the case if the first round where Youschenko won. The candidate supported by Kuchma and Putin is a convicted FELLON! having been in prison TWO times! Russia wanted him because he would throw the Ukraine into their sphere. The people saw what was going on and they have REFUSED to stand by and take it any more. The last "presidential election" pitted Kuchma against a communist candidate... big choice, NOT and Kuchma won. This time around there was a REAL choice and the people made it. Like I said, Kuchma and those who have been getting fat off of him here do NOT want the gravy train to end. To show you how nefarious these guys are, the Narada, like our U.S. Senate was supposed to meet yesterday in order to take a vote on whether or not the election was fraudulent. This was clearly the case, in a number of heavily Russian regions, those wishing to vote for the opposition candidate Youchenko were not permitted to vote. In other instances ballot boxes were stuffed before the polls even opened and they ran out of ballots so people were not able to vote. In another instance a policeman guarding the ballot boxes was killed trying to guard them. There have been widespread accounts of dead people voting (does all of this sound familiar?) And in other cases, acid was poured into ballot boxes to destroy the ballots. Everything I have told you is true. This was not a fair election. Youschenko cleaned Yana kovich's clock in the one and only debate they had (ONLY Russia concluded that Yanakovich won the debate.

Like I said, I am here and what is taking place is SPONTANIOUS on the part of Millions of people. What is happening has never been seen before in the entire lifetime of the population. The good news is the people are not just bending over to take it up the wazoo.

[bgarid]

I think both sides commited massive fraud, but their frauds sort of cancelled each other, so the end result is pretty representative of a genuine vote.

The reality which both sides have to face is 96% of vote for Yanukovich in Donetsk and 93% vote for Yushchenko in Lvov.

It would be a miracle, if such different regions can still remain parts of the same country.

[xm177e2]

I think us FReepers have to prepare for the possibility that the EU actually stood up for democracy and the resulting political pressure tipped the scales. Shocking as it sounds, maybe the EU can actually be a positive force in the world. Or maybe not; it's too early to tell.

Well, I was clearly wrong. Only Poland actually made a strong statement for democracy; the other EU states have failed to do so, as I expected. I really was shocked (in a pleasant way) to hear that they might have stood up for democracy; of course I was wrong.

[hosepipe]

Thanks for the info... So.. theres democrats in Ukraine too..eh!..

[b2stealth]

>I think both sides commited massive fraud, but their >frauds sort of cancelled each other, so the end result is >pretty representative of a genuine vote.

I think you do not understand what it is to live in post-communist country where communist leaders still in power.
You can't commit fraud it will be all over 4 goverment control channels.
But goverment can and is commiting fraud people being treatened with job termination or university rejecting students if they not vote for proRUSSIA Yanukovich.. Can you imagine that? There is nobody to complain police, KGB, TV, Army, Courts all controled by KUCHMA (PUTIN).

[mrobison]

Both sides engaged in massive voter fraud. There is no way to know who won - which you'd know if you'd followed this at all. Quit making stuff up.