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'Hydrogen highway' bad route, group says; Alternative fuel championed by governor flawed
Oakland Tribune ^ | 11/20/04 | Harrison Sheppard

Posted on 11/20/2004 10:02:46 AM PST by SierraWasp

'Hydrogen highway' bad route, group says
Alternative fuel championed by governor flawed, but proponents say give it more time

By Harrison SheppardSACRAMENTO BUREAU

Saturday, November 20, 2004 -

SACRAMENTO -- A report by a libertarian think tank seeks to debunk Gov. Arnold Schwarzenegger's plans for a "hydrogen highway" by claiming hydrogen-fueled vehicles will make little difference in reducing harmful emissions.

The report released this week by the Reason Foundation argues that even while hydrogen itself may be clean-burning, the processes used to manufacture and distribute hydrogen are dirty enough to nearly negate the benefits -- and the cost of conversion isn't worth the difference.

The study instead advocates more conservation, lowering freeway speed limits and making gasoline-powered cars smaller.

"Until we figure out ways to create hydrogen that are less energy-intensive or the performance of hydrogen improves, it's not a good air-quality measure," said Adrian Moore, the study's project director.

State environmental officials concede the study's argument has some merit -- if one only considers the current state of technology. But hydrogen is still an emerging science with rapid advances, and it is expected to be cheaper and more efficient in the future, said Michele St. Martin, spokeswoman for the California Department of Environmental Protection.

Ultimately, she said, the goal is to produce hydrogen through clean, renewable sources such as solar, wind and biomass, rather than natural gas.

"Every day these vehicles coming out are lighter and more fuel-efficient," St. Martin said. "At the end of the day, experts are saying hydrogen-powered vehicles will be at least twice as fuel-efficient as gasoline vehicles."

Earlier this year, Schwarzenegger proposed a "California Hydrogen Highway Network" that would result in a network of up to 200 hydrogen fueling stations on the state's freeways by 2010. The project is expected to cost $75 million to $200 million, with much of the costs picked up by the private sector.

The state has already opened three hydrogen fueling stations -- in Los Angeles, Davis and San Francisco -- and expects to have 18 more open soon, she said. City governments in those regions are using hydrogen cars in pilot programs.

Hydrogen car supporters say they are the clean-burning wave of the future, producing only water, not dirty carbon dioxide, in their exhaust.

The Reason study said it is not the emissions of individual hydrogen vehicles that is troubling, but the way in which hydrogen is produced and distributed. Hydrogen plants would most likely run on natural gas, which results in high emissions of carbon dioxide, the study argues.

The study also notes that converting some vehicles to hydrogen may actually make them greater polluters because hydrogen vehicles are heavier and therefore take more energy to generate the same horsepower.

According to the study, a Hummer H2 that is converted to hydrogen use will be about 1,000 pounds heavier. In order to get the same performance as a gasoline powered Hummer, a greater amount of carbon dioxide will be produced.

Schwarzenegger, who was criticized during the recall campaign for driving a Hummer, promised to convert one of his vehicles to hydrogen.

Last month, he appeared at a press conference at Los Angeles International Airport driving a hydrogen Hummer to open a fueling station there, although it turned out the vehicle was a prototype loaner from General Motors that is not available to the public.

V. John White, an adviser to the Sierra Club on clean-air issues, said he is skeptical of findings by the Reason Foundation because of the group's ideological bias. Hydrogen, he said, is only one part of a multipronged strategy to reduce emissions in California, and the hydrogen field continues to improve.

"The Reason Foundation doesn't accept we're living in a carbon-constrained world, and petroleum is rapidly reaching its peak and will soon begin a long decline," White said. "The alternatives to our addiction to petroleum are important to develop."


TOPICS: Business/Economy; Extended News; News/Current Events
KEYWORDS: energy; energylist; flatulence; hersheyhighway; highway; hydrogen; hydrogenhighway; idiocy
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To: SierraWasp

I saw their 'answer' and thought, this is a libertarian magazine?!?!

How about we leave people's cars alone and let the market do the talking!?!? Even the socialist KRAUTS don't have speed limits!


81 posted on 11/21/2004 3:31:08 PM PST by LibertarianInExile (NO BLOOD FOR CHOCOLATE! Get the UN-ignoring, unilateralist Frogs out of Ivory Coast!)
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To: newzjunkey

I am for market-based innovation--NOT government funding for it. Hydrogen is nothing but a huge government program waiting to happen.


82 posted on 11/21/2004 3:32:12 PM PST by LibertarianInExile (NO BLOOD FOR CHOCOLATE! Get the UN-ignoring, unilateralist Frogs out of Ivory Coast!)
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To: editor-surveyor

You got dat right BUMP!


83 posted on 11/21/2004 3:34:29 PM PST by LibertarianInExile (NO BLOOD FOR CHOCOLATE! Get the UN-ignoring, unilateralist Frogs out of Ivory Coast!)
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To: JeffersonRepublic.com

Oh, that would make sense that just the people living near the hundreds of new power plants that need to be built to handle hydrogen will suffer from the exhaust, because of course they deserve to suck fumes more than the drivers themselves...oh, wait, we can't build those power plants, because the envirowusses don't want those, either. /sarcasm

Let the market handle the lifting and stay away from government-imposed 'solutions' like hydrogen.


84 posted on 11/21/2004 3:39:11 PM PST by LibertarianInExile (NO BLOOD FOR CHOCOLATE! Get the UN-ignoring, unilateralist Frogs out of Ivory Coast!)
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To: monday
B O O M !!
85 posted on 11/21/2004 6:13:39 PM PST by timestax
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To: timestax
er, I mean K A -B O O M !!
86 posted on 11/21/2004 6:15:37 PM PST by timestax
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To: timestax

bttt


87 posted on 11/21/2004 6:23:28 PM PST by timestax
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To: CellPhoneSurfer; SierraWasp
"There is a sucker born every minute."
-----------------------

"Something I have come across on the internet is the Interstate Traveler Project. It combines Maglev rail travel with utility transportation (i.e. water, natural gas, electricity, fiber optics, high temperature superconducting cable, hydrogen, etc.). The entire length of the rail system is covered with solar power panels (each mile of rail producing about 844,800 watts of electricity per hour at peak time). Meaning that a 100 mile long installation supporting 8.4 million square feet of solar cells would generates about 84 megawatts per hour peak time. Additionally, the rail system can be used for producing hydrogen (using utility substations) and clean water. A rail the length of 100 miles would produce over 33,000 kg of hydrogen per hour at peak time, the energy equivalent of about 33,000 gallons of gasoline."   (posted by CellPhoneSurfer in #47)

-----------------------
  1. There is no such physical dimension as "watts per hour".

  2. "Peak time" power production is totally irrelevant. Only the average production that can be sustained over time in relevant.

  3. "8.4 million square feet" of solar panels will NOT produce "84 megawatts" of power. It will only average 13.9MW of power.

  4. Even at "84 megawatts", such a system will NOT produce the energy equivalent of "33,000 gallons of gasoline" per hour. 84 Mega Watts will only produce the energy equivalent of about 1,861 gallons of gasoline per hour.

  5. When using the TRUE power output of the array described, 13.9MW, the hydrogen production would only be the energy equivalent of about 310 gallons of gasoline per hour.

  6. The cost of 8.4 million square feet of solar panels would be in excess of 400 million dollars, or more than 600 million dollars, installed.

  7. 8.4 million square feet of solar panels would consume the entire world's production of solar panels for over a year, just for this one short 100 mile stretch of track.

  8. At a cost of $600 million and a production of 310 gallons of gasoline per hour, this system will pay for itself in only 88 years.
More brilliant thinking from the solar power scam artists. Only a complete fool would fall for their proposal.

--Boot Hill

88 posted on 11/21/2004 6:42:26 PM PST by Boot Hill (Candy-gram for Osama bin Mongo, candy-gram for Osama bin Mongo!!!)
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To: B Knotts; Dog Gone; Boot Hill; Grampa Dave; BOBTHENAILER
Biodiesel... Another totally uneconomical fiction! You couldn't plant enough biomass if you used all the airable land in the nation to even supply the nations fuel needs for just one month!!!

All you dreamers have got to get off the acid and stop havin flashbacks of "back to the future!" Puuleese!!!

89 posted on 11/21/2004 8:15:41 PM PST by SierraWasp ("Moderation in the pursuit of justice is no virtue!" - Barry Goldwater when he was in his right mind)
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To: LibertarianInExile; farmfriend; calcowgirl; Carry_Okie; NormsRevenge; Amerigomag; Dog Gone
"...this is a libertarian magazine?!?!"

I know! I was as disappointed as I was to see FReepers who avow themselves to be "Conservatives," cheering a Schwarzenegger/Kennedy to become a replacement for a Gray Davis/Jerry Brown!!!

This is completely out of character for "Reason" mag!!!

Is conservatism losing it's collective mind these days???

It certainly is losing it's consistency in some people's minds!!!

90 posted on 11/21/2004 8:25:52 PM PST by SierraWasp ("Moderation in the pursuit of justice is no virtue!" - Barry Goldwater when he was in his right mind)
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To: Dog Gone
"Hydrogen cannot be seriously considered a fuel when it takes more energy to create it than it produces."

I know... It's like too many people are doing an "Art Bell" and switching off any learning they ever had and switching to some supersillyus envirowhacko belief system, or something! It's painfull to watch otherwise intelligent FReepers suck into some of this dubious mythology!!!

91 posted on 11/21/2004 8:30:53 PM PST by SierraWasp ("Moderation in the pursuit of justice is no virtue!" - Barry Goldwater when he was in his right mind)
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To: SierraWasp

I picked up a couple of old copies of Reason and found it to be interesting but not what I'd consider right-leaning libertarianism (they seem to accept pretty commonly articles from leftists who would use the feds to enforce 'rights'). On the other hand, their commentary didn't seem annoyingly doctrinaire, which National Review and Weekly Standard can become. As a result, while Reason is not my kind of libertarianism exactly, I'd say that it was nonetheless more worth reading than crap like USnooze or NewsWeak.

And consistency on FR is pretty uncommon. It's hard to be perfectly consistent with so much information and situational ethics in play, although it sure would be nice if some people were reflexively Constitutional conservatives instead of reflexively GOP party hacks.


92 posted on 11/21/2004 9:01:36 PM PST by LibertarianInExile (NO BLOOD FOR CHOCOLATE! Get the UN-ignoring, unilateralist Frogs out of Ivory Coast!)
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To: SierraWasp

I thought biodiesel included anything that might qualify as a fuel, like recycled vegetable cooking oil. But getting back to the point--why should GOVERNMENT do it, even if it is 'good' and 'economical' and 'pollutes less,' if the market won't?!?! Let the market decide what it wants!


93 posted on 11/21/2004 9:14:08 PM PST by LibertarianInExile (NO BLOOD FOR CHOCOLATE! Get the UN-ignoring, unilateralist Frogs out of Ivory Coast!)
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To: LibertarianInExile; Ernest_at_the_Beach; FairOpinion; Lando Lincoln; DoughtyOne; Southack; ...
"Let the market decide what it wants!"

Oh! I fully agree! On both your replies. I must state again that all the recycled vegetable cooking oil added to all the biomess produced by all the airable land in the nation would supply approximately a month and a day of the current demand for fuel in this nation.

But it's pointless to argue with the "True Believers!" They fixate on some vague concept like Art Bell, or GovernMental EnvironMentalists and will NOT be talked out of it, no matter what's bogus, or pure bunk!!! And they go on, and on... and on and on!!!

So called "Conservatives" who aren't firmly anchored in constitutional principles, just drift from pillar to post with the whim of the multitudes, chasing after popular celebrities as their saviors.

I say... Never fall in love with a politician, or even a celebrity trying to act like one... They'll break your heart everytime!!!

94 posted on 11/21/2004 9:45:22 PM PST by SierraWasp ("Moderation in the pursuit of justice is no virtue!" - Barry Goldwater when he was in his right mind)
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To: SierraWasp
I say... Never fall in love with a politician, or even a celebrity trying to act like one... They'll break your heart everytime!!!

I shy away from the unnaturally muscled. I prefer the nerdy types. Pocket protectors welcome.

95 posted on 11/21/2004 9:48:00 PM PST by farmfriend ( In Essentials, Unity...In Non-Essentials, Liberty...In All Things, Charity.)
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To: farmfriend

Eeee Gads!!! What kinda pocket pertecters you tawlkin about? (snort!)


96 posted on 11/21/2004 9:56:24 PM PST by SierraWasp ("Moderation in the pursuit of justice is no virtue!" - Barry Goldwater when he was in his right mind)
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To: EagleUSA
Time will tell -- I am cutting him some slack since he was handed a very large bucket of horse excrement to deal with.

Very true, but he seems to be losing his focus rather badly.

97 posted on 11/21/2004 10:10:43 PM PST by Ernest_at_the_Beach (A Proud member of Free Republic ~~The New Face of the Fourth Estate since 1996.)
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To: SierraWasp

Glow in the dark ones!


98 posted on 11/21/2004 10:11:24 PM PST by farmfriend ( In Essentials, Unity...In Non-Essentials, Liberty...In All Things, Charity.)
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To: farmfriend
Pocket protectors welcome.

I have some of those in storage along with my slide rules....

99 posted on 11/21/2004 10:11:52 PM PST by Ernest_at_the_Beach (A Proud member of Free Republic ~~The New Face of the Fourth Estate since 1996.)
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To: Ernest_at_the_Beach
I have some of those in storage along with my slide rules....

Oh you sly dog you. You know there is a picture of me in the freeper photo album.

100 posted on 11/21/2004 10:14:11 PM PST by farmfriend ( In Essentials, Unity...In Non-Essentials, Liberty...In All Things, Charity.)
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