'Hydrogen highway' bad route, group says; Alternative fuel championed by governor flawed

Oakland Tribune ^ | 11/20/04 | Harrison Sheppard

[SierraWasp]

'Hydrogen highway' bad route, group says
Alternative fuel championed by governor flawed, but proponents say give it more time

By Harrison SheppardSACRAMENTO BUREAU

Saturday, November 20, 2004 -

SACRAMENTO -- A report by a libertarian think tank seeks to debunk Gov. Arnold Schwarzenegger's plans for a "hydrogen highway" by claiming hydrogen-fueled vehicles will make little difference in reducing harmful emissions.

The report released this week by the Reason Foundation argues that even while hydrogen itself may be clean-burning, the processes used to manufacture and distribute hydrogen are dirty enough to nearly negate the benefits -- and the cost of conversion isn't worth the difference.

The study instead advocates more conservation, lowering freeway speed limits and making gasoline-powered cars smaller.

"Until we figure out ways to create hydrogen that are less energy-intensive or the performance of hydrogen improves, it's not a good air-quality measure," said Adrian Moore, the study's project director.

State environmental officials concede the study's argument has some merit -- if one only considers the current state of technology. But hydrogen is still an emerging science with rapid advances, and it is expected to be cheaper and more efficient in the future, said Michele St. Martin, spokeswoman for the California Department of Environmental Protection.

Ultimately, she said, the goal is to produce hydrogen through clean, renewable sources such as solar, wind and biomass, rather than natural gas.

"Every day these vehicles coming out are lighter and more fuel-efficient," St. Martin said. "At the end of the day, experts are saying hydrogen-powered vehicles will be at least twice as fuel-efficient as gasoline vehicles."

Earlier this year, Schwarzenegger proposed a "California Hydrogen Highway Network" that would result in a network of up to 200 hydrogen fueling stations on the state's freeways by 2010. The project is expected to cost $75 million to $200 million, with much of the costs picked up by the private sector.

The state has already opened three hydrogen fueling stations -- in Los Angeles, Davis and San Francisco -- and expects to have 18 more open soon, she said. City governments in those regions are using hydrogen cars in pilot programs.

Hydrogen car supporters say they are the clean-burning wave of the future, producing only water, not dirty carbon dioxide, in their exhaust.

The Reason study said it is not the emissions of individual hydrogen vehicles that is troubling, but the way in which hydrogen is produced and distributed. Hydrogen plants would most likely run on natural gas, which results in high emissions of carbon dioxide, the study argues.

The study also notes that converting some vehicles to hydrogen may actually make them greater polluters because hydrogen vehicles are heavier and therefore take more energy to generate the same horsepower.

According to the study, a Hummer H2 that is converted to hydrogen use will be about 1,000 pounds heavier. In order to get the same performance as a gasoline powered Hummer, a greater amount of carbon dioxide will be produced.

Schwarzenegger, who was criticized during the recall campaign for driving a Hummer, promised to convert one of his vehicles to hydrogen.

Last month, he appeared at a press conference at Los Angeles International Airport driving a hydrogen Hummer to open a fueling station there, although it turned out the vehicle was a prototype loaner from General Motors that is not available to the public.

V. John White, an adviser to the Sierra Club on clean-air issues, said he is skeptical of findings by the Reason Foundation because of the group's ideological bias. Hydrogen, he said, is only one part of a multipronged strategy to reduce emissions in California, and the hydrogen field continues to improve.

"The Reason Foundation doesn't accept we're living in a carbon-constrained world, and petroleum is rapidly reaching its peak and will soon begin a long decline," White said. "The alternatives to our addiction to petroleum are important to develop."

[TigerTale]

Unless environmentalists are willing to start burning uranium

Regardless of what the envirnonmentalists say today, we will burn uranium evenutally.

[timestax]

bttt

[snopercod]

If we could just return to living in harmony with nature like in the utopian past...

...you know, back to the time not so long ago when humans didn't wear underwear and lived short, miserable lives of unspeakable, backbreaking labor, disease, and squalor...

Yeah, that's the ticket!

[Reeses]

With tens of millions of motor vehicles clogging the roads, California *MUST* think differently

How will hydrogen help unclog roads? Hybrids are a successful transition technology and don't require multi-billion dollar government "investment" in infrastructure. The next logical step is to embed induction coils in select highways so hybrids can burn less and less gasoline. This could also act as a track so cars could join into virtual trains. Now that would do something about clogged roads.

[EagleUSA]

"I want some credible answers from consistent conservative..."
=====
Well, Arnold has not been at it long enough to be judged...certainly some of the things he will do, and how he will do them, may or may not be to our liking (as a resident of California) but he has a mandate. He will be judged on whether or not he fixes the state's problems.

If he fails to do that, he will be working hard on Terminator 4. Time will tell -- I am cutting him some slack since he was handed a very large bucket of horse excrement to deal with.

[FredZarguna]

Regardless of what the envirnonmentalists say today, we will burn uranium evenutally.

I hope that's true. Given the degree of misinformation, disinformation, and outright lies about nuclear power I'm not hopeful that we'll get there before oil hits, say $200 per barrel. Like to be wrong, but when you say "nuclear power" to most Americans in the 21st century you as well be talking about giving the "evil eye" to medieval peasants.

[CellPhoneSurfer]

I am reposting the following information that I had previously posted on from another thread (Winning the Maglev race) It is somewhat related to this thread since it concerns the production and transportation of hydrogen as well as reducing congestion of traffic:

(As I try to post this, I am unable to reach the website referenced below. If you are unable to connect, try again later when hopefully the DNS problem will have been resolved)

Something I have come across on the internet is the Interstate Traveler Project. It combines Maglev rail travel with utility transportation (i.e. water, natural gas, electricity, fiber optics, high temperature superconducting cable, hydrogen, etc.). The entire length of the rail system is covered with solar power panels (each mile of rail producing about 844,800 watts of electricity per hour at peak time). Meaning that a 100 mile long installation supporting 8.4 million square feet of solar cells would generates about 84 megawatts per hour peak time.  Additionally, the rail system can be used for producing hydrogen (using utility substations) and clean water.  A rail the length of 100 miles would produce over 33,000 kg of hydrogen per hour at peak time, the energy equivalent of about 33,000 gallons of gasoline.

All controls for the Conduit Cluster system would be managed using a control system similar to the TCP/IP technology used for the internet giving real-time control and monitoring of every car on the system, every watt of electricity, every cubic meter of hydrogen, and every gallon of clean water produced by the hydrogen fuel cells, and everything else in the conduit cluster. 

The rail system  is designed to work within the right of way of the existing U.S. highway systems and other permissible right of ways (including unused train right of ways). It is also built into the design to transport passengers in their own automobiles for greater mobility options.  Both the Michigan and Oklahoma Houses of Representatives and the Michigan Senate have begun to support the Interstate Traveler Project within their respective states.

The founder of the company has hired former House representative Republican Richard Chrysler (104th congress Michigan's 8th district) as CEO. A newspaper article about the company and it's plans can be read here.

[BlackbirdSST]

The gubinator needs to suffer from a "Total Recall". JMO. Blackbird.

[LibertarianInExile]

But is it a BETTER alternative? If so, why aren't companies producing them and people buying them without government interference?

Oh, wait, because you have to have government interference in the market to remain competitive, right? Like the Prius, which would only sell with government subsidy--NOT!

Going to hydrogen would a big waste of money that wouldn't do squat to solve energy problems. It'd just create more. It doesn't do squat to solve pollution problems--the pollution just moves to the new power plants we'd need to build to make hydrogen, and burning hydrogen creates pollution of a different sort anyway. It doesn't do squat to solve our infrastructure issues--it would require paying for a whole new infrastructure just for hydrogen!

Let the market solve the problem. If consumers think there is one, they'll invest in what they consider the best solution to the problem.

[Old Professer]

Less good is bad.

[calcowgirl]

http://www.rppi.org/ps322.pdf

Thanks for posting the link to the full report. Interesting analysis indeed.

Even when one considers the example of the “Hydrogen Hummer,” the actual impacts are different than the assumed effects. Using prior results, a simple calculation shows that a Hummer H2 with a curb weight of 6,400 lb will produce just over 600 pounds of CO2 per 300 miles driven.17 The same vehicle outfitted with a hydrogen fuel cell will be roughly 1,000 pounds heavier. Adding 50 horsepower to give the fuel-cell version the same performance as the stock Hummer results in 740 pounds of CO2 per 300 miles driven, a 20 percent increase over a stock gasoline-powered Hummer.

[editor-surveyor]

"The study instead advocates more conservation, lowering freeway speed limits and making gasoline-powered cars smaller."

This is loonier than burning hydrogen!

Cars are too small now, and lowering highway speeds will exacerbate all of our problems.

The real solution is eliminating highway speed limits, and setting a minimum speed of 75 mph, while returning to high compression gasoline or alcohol fueled engines which can literally give double the mileage that present engines can. This will also eliminate the source of all of the real polutants that come out of the tailpipe: Catalytic converters, which spew anhydrous sulpheric acid.

The tyrants don't want a solution, they want less mobility for the public.

[timestax]

The tyrants don't want a solution, they want less mobility for the public.

I think maybe you are right.

[editor-surveyor]

"I thought we were FOR that kind of pro-business, pro-market, pro-innovation solution?"

Hydrogen isn't a solution, it is a stumbling block to freedom and mobility.

You're obviously not an engineer, or you could realize that we don't have a problem at all with our current method of propulsion. Our problems are political, and all stem from the election of socialists, who need problems to remain in power.

[editor-surveyor]

Hey Timm, there is zero evidence that we are, or ever will, "run out of oil."

Face reality, don't support socialism.

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[farmfriend]

Since you think Arnold is so great...

[farmfriend]

We could use some scientists on this thread.

[hosepipe]

I hope those guys know about the greatest hydrogen storage known to man has been found..

Is called gasoline..

[PatrickHenry]

We could use some scientists on this thread.

I'm just a fan, but Physicist and RadioAstronomer are the real thing.

[farmfriend]

Well actually I was hoping you would ping the science list bringing in better discussion about the science. Yes, I know Physicist and Radio are real.