Dr. John Llewellyn
(336) 759-7229
llewelly@wfu.edu
In May, 1973 following discharge from Letterman Army Medical Center, Presidio of San Francisco, California I transited to Ft, Monmouth, NJ for training in a new MOS. Still in some pain and uncomfortable from the cross country flight I was waiting near the Port Authority in NY to see if I could hook up with a couple of GIs to try to split the cab fare to Ft, Monmouth. In uniform, with only my duffel bag, I was passed by a group of about 5 or 6 Kerry types. When they passed behind me, I heard the typical insults about, heard one of them spit and felt it hit my back. I didn't see which one did it, but they were all laughing loudly and "slapping each other some skin" as the disappeared around the corner.
My Brother and his buddies were spit at and cursed by a pack of dirty hippies/war protesters as They came out the main gate at Travis AFB in 1974.
He spent two weeks drunk, And another two years wandering
around North America. He's doing OK . Wife,Kids,Mortgage,
Etc.. I can get him to talk a little about Nam when we're
by ourselves, But he never talks about coming back to the states.
The pencil neck mythbuster who put out this "Study" can go straight to Hell.
Well, in support of John, I guess, Viet Vets only cut off ears, cut off heads and razed villages reminiscent of Genghis Khan according to John Kerry in front of the U.S. Senate. There was no evidence of foul smelling hippies spitting on vets........ /sarcasm
Looks like this guy forgot about the likes of Kerry, Clinton and every other left wing maggot in history. They have done nothing but disrespect all our veterans.
Growing up in the 60's and 70's and then serving during Desert Storm, I can truly say many service members were surprised at the outpouring of support after the war. I know it gave me hope for this country — and so did last Tuesday!
Another friend Ret. COL USAF said they spit on him..he was enroute to his mom's funeral having come all the way from Vietnam for it.
I have news for you Llewellyn. We veterans won every major engagement with the VC and communist north. The military did NOT LOSE THE WAR....YOU and your ilk lost it here at home. Damn you to hell for that. You have that knowledge to carry with you for eternity.
Insults did happen to us upon our return from the war. Most of us were under orders to avoid provocations. Some of us could not.
Your evil against us is uncovered for all to see and it's ugliness has no redemption.
This is how the hippy dippy types who protested the war make themselves feel better about themselves. It's called denial.
This is a very disturbing story. The " academic " dismisses the reality of returning Vietnam Vets as an "urban legend" and says "we should ignore anyone who tries to tell us otherwise". He is right that the "meaning of Vietnam is created through the stories we tell each other."
An entire generation accepted the "stories" John Kerry and his ilk told this country about our soldiers activities and who these men were. The entire country believed the lies..the "stories". There wasn't the chance to tell the "true stories" ..and there were no "embedded reporters". And John Kerry was never made to apologize, say that he had lied, so the "stories" were kept alive as true until the Swiftees broke through decades of the Big Lie.
This is the first time in our country's history since Vietnam War that the Truth, the stories of Truth have come out!
I would like this "so called communications academic" to get out of his cushy, ivory tower job to really get into "communications". I am not a Vietnam Vet. However I have been a psychotherapist for over 20 years and I have "communicated" with Vietnam Vets. Their reality is true. This academic has probably never heard of Post Traumatic Stress disorder. He has probably never heard the vet "stories" about how their return after the war really was. There was no validation about what they had been through and no recognition, and in addition they had to face Kerry's lies. Kerry's traitorous behavior was not just limited to the effects on soldiers and POW's in Vietnam, but also for those that never had any treatment for the reality of the war when they came home. And worse than that they had to "hide" who they were because they were not validated when they came home.
Today, when soldiers come home, we recognize the trauma they have been through and validate their honor and their pain and offer help and support. We help them see the true meaning of their valiant effort, hoping they can heal, not only physically but also psychologically and spiritually.
This academic, like John Kerry, continues the lies and dishonours brave soldiers. to do that is not just political drival....To do that is a crime against the soul.
Call me, Dr. LLewellyn. I'd be glad to "communicate" with you.
What we have here is the begining of the left's rewriting of history so they can bring someone like Kerry to the national level without this becoming a problem again.
Because now it can be said that this researcher of Urban legends found it not to be true.
I haven't sent an email yet, but here's the one I'm thinking of:
Well sir, I have never been certified as anything by a Federal jury, but I have written enough articles for publication (and edited them) to know when someone is covering up for lack of research by talking in generalities. I happen to know who wrote the article. He was a fairly well-known columnist. The mention of his name, and the date of publication of his column, along with some kind of at least argumentative analysis showing the dates of publication of these accounts might lead me to believe you did some research on it. As it is, all you do is quote another individual. Further, your "research" which any 11th grade English teacher would reject out of hand, consists of reading a book written by someone else and regurgitating his claims. Where did you get your doctorate, Bill and Ted's Excellent Graduate School?Does that work?
Can't help but notice he gets his information from everyone BUT THE SOLDIERS
I would like to demonstrate exactly how it was done if you would care to meet with me.
Or just give me your "20" and I will come to you.
Sincerely Yours
Mr. Spit
The Urban Myth is that most Vietnam vets were war criminals.
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Tonight's the last night for TV airings of "WE WERE SOLDIERS" on the TNT TV Network:
We Were Soldiers, TNT, Friday 9pm EST, Saturday 8 pm EST, Sunday 8pm EST
http://www.Freerepublic.com/focus/news/1272319/posts?page=1
Playing now, re-airs at 7:30pm PST, 10:30pm EST
.
Proven by a push-poll?
I don't know about the returning Vietnam Vets in the 70's, but I was an Officer Candidate on leave in 1980 in Rhode Island, and while I wasn't literally spit upon, I was the object of some pretty unfriendly stairs, whispering, laughter, derision, and in at least a couple of cases, outright nasty (i.e. "hey ya.. Baby killer..") comments. We were (apparently) the first class since the early 1970's ordered to wear our dress uniform on liberty.
The same thing happened a year later to my shipboard sailors. They were welcome every place in the world, except home in the U.S.A.. After four years of Reagan, by 1995 when I left active duty, you couldn't take a walk out in town without someone thanking you for your service, or attempting to buy you a beer (or perhaps, invite you to church or home to meet the daughter). Four years of "morning in America", plus a strong President, turned night-time into day for the military guys.
So, I don't know what this revisionist historian is talking about, because if I lived it in 1980-81, I'm sure it was a lot worse in the 1970's.
SFS
April 8, 2004 -- Several non-fans of WinterSoldier.com have written in to decry what they call the "myth" that returning Vietnam veterans were spat upon by leftist protestors. This claim appears to come from an article called The Spitting Image by a Holy Cross sociologist named Jerry Lembcke. The book version features a photo of the Dewey Canyon III medal toss on the cover -- Mr. Lembcke, it turns out, was a member of Vietnam Veterans Against the War. He also seems to be a fan of the Communist Manifesto, and the co-author of a history of the Communist Party USA endorsed by that organization. Perhaps he wasn't really looking all that hard for spitting incidents.
Chicago Tribune writer Bob Greene documented several dozen such events in his 1990 book Homecoming, but Lembcke finds those accounts unpersuasive. His larger purpose, of course, is to obscure the fact that Vietnam veterans were treated with contempt largely because of the atrocity propaganda he himself helped create.
About 5-6 years ago, I guess I was sophmore in college, I had a history class at Monmouth University in NJ with a left wing professor (although I didn't realize it at the time).
I remember very clearly the day he told the class how he and his wife were invited to a dinner party at the house of a friend of his wife's. They went in and were sitting down and the conversation turned to the husband of the host. The husband mentioned that he flew B-52s (or whatever the big bombers were called) in Vietnam. My professor then told us that he stood up and cursed the guy and dragged his wife out of the party.
From how he told the story i gathered that this event took place long after the Vietnam war was over.
After he finished telling it I remember how animated and angery he was. This made an impression on me as it is one of the only things I remember about his class! None of us knew what to say, we were just young stupid kids and didn't really have a clue what he was talking about.
In any case, if the hatered and rage that this professor showed NOW was any indication of the attitude back in the 70s then I certainly believe the other testimony posted here.
Just recently, after doing some research myself, I found the actual history of the Vietnam war to be quite different then what I was taught in both high school and college. It was written in terms of Kerry's positions before the election so apologies to those sick of seeing his name:
http://www.neoperspectives.com/johnkerry.htm
Becoming their spokesmen, he famously testified on national television before the Senate Foreign Relations Committee, headed by Liberal Democratic Senator William Fullbright.
At this time, American prisoners of war were being held in atrocious conditions by the North Vietnamese. Subject to daily torture, starvation, and disease, they were forced to sign confessions of war crimes and were subjected to continuing propoganda by the North Vietnamese. Senator John McCain, who spent 6 years in captivity, wrote in the May 14, 1973 issue of U.S. News & World Report:
"All through this period," wrote McCain, his captors were "bombarding us with anti-war quotes from people in high places back in Washington. This was the most effective propaganda they had to use against us."
"They used Senator Fullbright a great deal." (1)
Testifying before the committee Kerry said:
I would like to talk on behalf of all those veterans and say that several months ago in Detroit we had an investigation at which over 150 honorably discharged, and many very highly decorated, veterans testified to war crimes committed in Southeast Asia. These were not isolated incidents but crimes committed on a day-to-day basis with the full awareness of officers at all levels of command.
They told stories that at times they had personally raped, cut off ears, cut off heads, taped wires from portable telephones to human genitals and turned up the power, cut off limbs, blown up bodies, randomly shot at civilians, razed villages in fashion reminiscent of Ghengis Khan, shot cattle and dogs for fun, poisoned food stocks, and generally ravaged the countryside of South Vietnam in addition to the normal ravage of war and the normal and very particular ravaging which is done by the applied bombing power of this country. (2)
War is hell and in any prolonged engagement in the midst of a civilian population there are going to be some atrocities and civilian casualties, and there are documented instances of American atrocities (My Lai), but certainly nothing was occurring that remotely resembled what Kerry reported to the nation. In the United States military, if a soldier witnesses a war crime, he is required to report it to his commanding officer. If Kerry witnessed (or committed) war crimes he never reported them to his superiors. Thirty years later in Iraq, Kerry and his surrogates have similarly played up the relatively isolated misconducts by American soldiers in the Abu Graib prison. In fact, Kerry called for Defense Secretary Rumsfeld resignation over the scandal.
In reality, American forces generously built schools, hospitals and roads to try to win the 'hearts and minds' of the South Vietnamese people and attempted to minimize civilian casualties. North Vietnamese P.O.Ws were generally treated humanly. Kerry's comments were widely played throughout the media. Public opinion, already turning against the war, began to shift even faster. Moral plummeted on the front lines. Returning soldiers were asked by friends and family if they had committed war crimes, veterans seen in uniform were sometimes booed. This deep resentment and feeling of betrayal is why only 4 out of 20 swift veteran captains who served with Kerry support his candidacy. Hundreds of swift boat veterans, including all of Kerry's surviving superior officers formed a '527' organization, 'Swift Boat Veterans For Truth' to run ads against Kerry during his run for the presidency.
Subsequent military and FBI investigations found that a number of the 150 VVAW veterans whose testimony Kerry cited, including the co-founder, were not even veterans and many had never even seen combat. The investigations also discovered that almost all of their testimony was either blatantly falsified, or uncorroborated. Kerry has never apologized for his actions, but has said he regretted his word choice.
In 1970 Kerry traveled to Paris to visit secretly with two Communist North Vietnamese peace delegations. This action may have been illegal according to US code 18 U.S.C. 953, which states that a U.S. citizen cannot go abroad and negotiate with a foreign power. The penalty for violation is a maximum of three years imprisonment. (28) Kerry has never been charged.
A few years after Kerry's Paris trip, the United States and the North Vietnamese Communist government signed a peace agreement and the United States withdrew from South Vietnam. The Communists immediately violated their agreement, attacked South Vietnam, and entered Saigon on April 30, 1975.
When asked about possible repercussions against the South Vietnamese Kerry answered:
"Having done what we have done to that country, we have an obligation to offer sanctuary to the perhaps 2,000, 3,000 people who might face political assassination or something else."
That same week, he appeared on the Dick Cavett show. "There'd be no interest on the part of the Vietnamese to start massacring people after the U.S. has pulled out," Kerry told Cavett. (5)
Prior to 1975 the North Vietnamese Communists had already killed between 50,000-100,000 of their own citizens in purges, terrors and 'land reforms'. (3) Upon reuniting their country, the North Vietnamese killed or sent to labor camps hundreds of thousands of South Vietnamese citizens. Millions of refugees have since fled Vietnam. Known as 'the boat people', they sought refuge wherever they could. At least 100,000 people drowned fleeing the Communists. Others were attacked by pirates, or were repatriated to the hellish labor camps of Vietnam. Today, over 1.2 million South Vietnamese refugees live in the United States. Yet Kerry seemed to believe the primary threat to the Vietnamese people was that posed by the armed forces of the United States.
In December 1975, just months after Saigon fell, the government of neighboring Laos fell to a Vietnamese backed Communist force. Hundreds of thousands were killed in war, famine and political assassination (3). The Hmong tribespeople, loyal American allies before the pullout, were decimated, an estimated ten per cent of them were killed by Communist forces. (6)
On April 17th, 1975 the Khmer Rouge, a Communist guerrilla group led by Pol Pot, overthrew the US backed government (weakened by the US withdrawal) with the help of the North Vietnamese government and China. They forced all city dwellers into the countryside and to labor camps. During their rule, it is estimated that 2 million Cambodians died by starvation, torture or execution. 2 million Cambodians represented approximately 30% of the Cambodian population during that time. (7)
In sum, the American withdrawal left over 3 million dead and caused millions more to flee their homes. Today South East Asia is still impoverished and undemocratic. Growing up, we are taught that the 'domino effect' was a foolish, flawed theory. In reality, it was a perfect predictor of what came to pass. South Vietnam, Laos and Cambodia fell to the Communists within a year. Burma battled Communists insurgencies, even while embarking on an even harsher form of socialism that starved it's population. Communist insurgencies, although not ultimately successful, increased in intensity in Thailand. It's possible that Communism could have spread even further and the insurgencies been more successful if the newly formed Communist nations hadn't turned on each other in another orgy of violence.
As these events unfolded, America suffered a terrible weakening of our national pride and our moral leadership in the world was shaken. We were not defeated on the battlefield, we were defeated by weak national leadership and by public opinion here at home. Kerry has never apologized for his actions or testimony, although he admitted he 'used a poor choice of words'.