Posted on 10/01/2004 7:29:40 PM PDT by Pikamax
Kerry starts to sway the undecided
Presidential challenger seen as the better debater - but will the don't-knows want him in the White House?
Oliver Burkeman in New York Saturday October 2, 2004 The Guardian
The first head-to-head clash between George Bush and John Kerry left America's crucial constituency of undecided voters broadly agreeing that the Democrat had won - but still far from unanimous that they wanted him as president. In swing states across the country yesterday, voters who have yet to make up their minds told the Guardian that President Bush's long pauses and irritated facial expressions had contrasted poorly with his opponent's poise. Some, however, said they still found Mr Kerry unclear when it came to his views on Iraq.
"Kerry won," conceded James Scalzo, 61, a retired defence contractor from Michigan and a registered Republican who voted for Mr Bush in 2000. "It was a question of style. He came across as more relaxed, more in control - Bush seemed a little agitated; a little nervous. But I'm really not too enthused by either candidate. I guess I still dislike Kerry more than I do Bush."
As Democratic campaigners hurried to prepare material to exploit footage of the president's reactions, Sharon Trenoweth, a registered independent from New Hampshire, felt she had seen those facial expressions somewhere before. "You know when you're little and your dad says, 'Do it because I said so.' [Bush] was like that: 'I know what I'm talking about, I'm the boss, and that's that.'"
Mr Kerry might have seemed aloof, "but we don't necessarily have to have a buddy. We want someone who's intelligent. Kerry didn't get me excited before, and he still doesn't, but now I think he's the best option," said Ms Trenoweth, who used to work in the defence industry and now paints New England folk art for a living.
She was glued to the debate "like the Superbowl", she said. The sporting comparison was reflected in the deluge of instant post-match analysis.
A CNN survey of viewers found that 57% felt Mr Kerry performed better, with 37% favouring Mr Bush. But while 60% thought the Democrat expressed himself more clearly - a blow for Republican efforts to portray him as a "flip-flopper" - 54% still felt the incumbent would be the tougher leader if re-elected.
In Miami, where the debate took place on Thursday night, Nory Acosta, 24, a law student, was one of many undecideds who preferred Mr Kerry's style but remained in the Bush camp on the Iraq issue. "Maybe his answers didn't come as quickly as they might have come, but I think at this point there really isn't much choice but to carry on - otherwise it might pose a problem in terms of the impression in the rest of the world," she said.
Her concern for projecting a consistent international image mirrored a point Mr Bush made repeatedly in the debate. "I know we're not going to achieve our objective if we send mixed signals to our troops, our friends, the Iraqi citizens," he said.
But the president also found support among swing voters who thought the rest of the world's views should not matter. "George W Bush is the president of the United States, and to me, the United States should come first, rather than the world," said Vaughn Hoovler, 36, the owner of a metal-pressing company in Mansfield, Ohio, and a rare example of an undecided voter who called the debate for the president.
"I thought George did a wonderful job," said Mr Hoovler. "I was confident he knew where he was at, and what he had to do to move forward. Yeah, he looked angry, but he was clear and to the point."
However, Mr Kerry's insistence on taking an internationalist approach to US foreign policy found widespread support, even among those leaning towards Mr Bush. "He vacillates back and forth [on Iraq], but I think he's right in that regard," said Mr Scalzo, while Ms Acosta - though declaring herself more sympathetic to the incumbent - said she "did actually agree with Kerry on that point".
In the debate, Mr Kerry had condemned Mr Bush for failing even to hold "the kind of statesmanlike summits that pull people together ... In fact, he's done the opposite - he pushed them away".
Mr Kerry's task will be to turn the good impression he left on Thursday night into a conviction on the part of undecided voters that his specific policy proposals are superior. For Therese Safford, an employee of the Great Lakes Tribal Council in Wisconsin, he seemed to be well on the way. "Kerry sounds like he has a plan. I'm sure the president has a plan, too," she added, wryly, "but he didn't seem to know what the plan was". The Iraq war only took place, she suspected, "because he felt he needed to finish the unfinished business left by his father."
Mr Bush's curious use of language drew mockery from one influential corner of cable television, the Daily Show on Comedy Central, which is watched by many young adults. The president's assertion that "we are facing a group of folks who have such hatred in their hearts, they'll strike anywhere" made al-Qaida sound more like a harmless gathering of diners at an Italian restaurant, observed the presenter Jon Stewart.
"We're facing a group of folks? A group of folks is what you run into at the Olive Garden," he said.
Sheesh, I can't type tonight. Too excited about Ichiro breaking the record.
Three weeks from now, most viewers won't be able to recall the nuances of argument, but they will remember that Kerry believes, "Iraq is the wrong war at the wrong place and the wrong time," that, "[T]he world is safer without Saddam Hussein," that the terrorists, "understand that a free Afghanistan or a free Iraq will be a major defeat for them."
Last night was a time to repeat the key ideas to implant them in the minds of voters. That's why President Bush won. It's really as simple as that. You'll see.
Unfortunately, appearance has quite a bit to do with a debate. Look at the Nixon-Kennedy debate in 1960. Those who were listening on the radio said Nixon won, those watching on t.v. said Kennedy won.
Did you notice Kerry's tongue flickering thing that he did last night? That is really so repulsive.
Well this explains why EVERY POLL shows Kerry beat Bush by a long shot. What planet do you live on?
You may not be a troll but you are a moron.
I am on earth. Where, pray tell, are you?
The polls show people granted Kerry style and Bush increased numbers where it counts. Like who are they going to vote for, who is more trustworthy, etc.
This is not some mindless game here.
No, I still think it's a troll.
Dubya was crappy, but I agree, he'll still win. But his handlers should have known that public speaking, especially off the cuff, was his major weakness, and they should have had him rested and more focused. He should not have campaigned that day..those efforts got zero play. He needs a speech trainer, just as a boxer needs a trainer. I like Dubya, but I see his debating weakness, and he better fix it.
Ichiro plugs!! Woohoo!!
Okay, back to topic.
Let me just simplify this.
Bush cannot lose on foreign policy. Period.
Those advocating the idea he lost are forgetting they were arguing foreign policy which Kerry has no advantage on. They are advocating Style will trump this policy. Somehow, I sincerely doubt it.
You have a good point Bob, I just hope your right :)
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Its just a gut feeling based upon what I have seen and heard.. and how my wife reacted. (and what I know about politics)
Most people will forgive the president for style - but would not forgive him for screwing up on substance.
Right now the MSM is doing its best to spin a style win (which happened mid way through the debate as bush was pasting Kerry in the beginning) of Kerry into a full blown come back.
What really ticked me off was watching the Fox all stars tonight. They had more brains than that. Connely who is a hack said thay Kerry had a fresh start?
WTH? Rush is right. The debate does not operate in a vacuum. They know the Dem base is depressed and might not even turn out. So, in turn, they MUST some how try to jump start that base.
So what do you do? Take any little point and force it to become positive.
I hope you have seen the latest flip-flop advertisment from the RNC.
Debates are one small segment.
We ALL wanted it to be over with last night - but we forgot how the 2000 debates where (well i didnt). The MSM is doing the same to W as they did in 2000.
Fox and the new media must keep driving home the global test and iran nuclear fuel mantra (in addition to the flip-flops he did during the debate).
less than 30 days left we MUST keep hammering on substance. Winning on substance is what gave Bush his lead in the first place and it will be what he wins or loses on.
Ask your self when bush has EVER won on presentation. Ask your self what the undecideds and women are looking for? Silky poney guys with fair hair who can speak well - or men with stones of brass?
After you ask your self that question look at that final question in the Gallup poll who was tough enough for the job. Remember, we are in a war, not a time of peace.
stones of brass, baby.
Exactly. Anyone who comes back after being behind to win a game is considered to have won the game. Period.
I went from feeling great and cheering Bush on, to completely depressed and disheartened. I can't believe how bad Bush was during the last half.
He should have kicked butt. Kerry handed him opportunity after opportunity to put this away and Bush did NOTHING.
I don't have any way of knowing your spirtual place, but let me say that often we don't understand what God is doing in our lives, because we're too close to the mosiac. It's only when we are able to zoom out (usually in 20/20 hindsight) that we understand.
Now, I'm not comparing Team Bush with God by any stretch, but looking at what they're doing in similar terms, we sometimes can't see the big picture they're looking at.
No, there are a lot of folks who don't choose to spend their time on politics, for whatever reason this does not make them "uneducated" or "dopes".
Has the voting public's intelligence changed that much since the 80s? I don't think so.
I look for a very strong turnout at the polls in November, and whether anyone appreciates them or not, the Christian Right will carry the day for Dubya as it did twice for RR.
Now Conner, you need to stop being so gloomy and negative.
Instead, think of ways to get 'undecideds' and 'new voters' to listen to, or read, what our President says and what he is all about.
Well this explains why EVERY POLL shows Kerry beat Bush by a long shot. What planet do you live on?
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Talk to me when Kerry starts whipping Bush in the polls. One can win on talking points but lose in substance. Ask Dukakis in '84 about the kitty dukakis moment.
'88
My bad. sorry. thats what I get for freeping while I am doing a proposal/work. lol.
no problem.
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