Posted on 10/01/2004 7:29:40 PM PDT by Pikamax
Kerry starts to sway the undecided
Presidential challenger seen as the better debater - but will the don't-knows want him in the White House?
Oliver Burkeman in New York Saturday October 2, 2004 The Guardian
The first head-to-head clash between George Bush and John Kerry left America's crucial constituency of undecided voters broadly agreeing that the Democrat had won - but still far from unanimous that they wanted him as president. In swing states across the country yesterday, voters who have yet to make up their minds told the Guardian that President Bush's long pauses and irritated facial expressions had contrasted poorly with his opponent's poise. Some, however, said they still found Mr Kerry unclear when it came to his views on Iraq.
"Kerry won," conceded James Scalzo, 61, a retired defence contractor from Michigan and a registered Republican who voted for Mr Bush in 2000. "It was a question of style. He came across as more relaxed, more in control - Bush seemed a little agitated; a little nervous. But I'm really not too enthused by either candidate. I guess I still dislike Kerry more than I do Bush."
As Democratic campaigners hurried to prepare material to exploit footage of the president's reactions, Sharon Trenoweth, a registered independent from New Hampshire, felt she had seen those facial expressions somewhere before. "You know when you're little and your dad says, 'Do it because I said so.' [Bush] was like that: 'I know what I'm talking about, I'm the boss, and that's that.'"
Mr Kerry might have seemed aloof, "but we don't necessarily have to have a buddy. We want someone who's intelligent. Kerry didn't get me excited before, and he still doesn't, but now I think he's the best option," said Ms Trenoweth, who used to work in the defence industry and now paints New England folk art for a living.
She was glued to the debate "like the Superbowl", she said. The sporting comparison was reflected in the deluge of instant post-match analysis.
A CNN survey of viewers found that 57% felt Mr Kerry performed better, with 37% favouring Mr Bush. But while 60% thought the Democrat expressed himself more clearly - a blow for Republican efforts to portray him as a "flip-flopper" - 54% still felt the incumbent would be the tougher leader if re-elected.
In Miami, where the debate took place on Thursday night, Nory Acosta, 24, a law student, was one of many undecideds who preferred Mr Kerry's style but remained in the Bush camp on the Iraq issue. "Maybe his answers didn't come as quickly as they might have come, but I think at this point there really isn't much choice but to carry on - otherwise it might pose a problem in terms of the impression in the rest of the world," she said.
Her concern for projecting a consistent international image mirrored a point Mr Bush made repeatedly in the debate. "I know we're not going to achieve our objective if we send mixed signals to our troops, our friends, the Iraqi citizens," he said.
But the president also found support among swing voters who thought the rest of the world's views should not matter. "George W Bush is the president of the United States, and to me, the United States should come first, rather than the world," said Vaughn Hoovler, 36, the owner of a metal-pressing company in Mansfield, Ohio, and a rare example of an undecided voter who called the debate for the president.
"I thought George did a wonderful job," said Mr Hoovler. "I was confident he knew where he was at, and what he had to do to move forward. Yeah, he looked angry, but he was clear and to the point."
However, Mr Kerry's insistence on taking an internationalist approach to US foreign policy found widespread support, even among those leaning towards Mr Bush. "He vacillates back and forth [on Iraq], but I think he's right in that regard," said Mr Scalzo, while Ms Acosta - though declaring herself more sympathetic to the incumbent - said she "did actually agree with Kerry on that point".
In the debate, Mr Kerry had condemned Mr Bush for failing even to hold "the kind of statesmanlike summits that pull people together ... In fact, he's done the opposite - he pushed them away".
Mr Kerry's task will be to turn the good impression he left on Thursday night into a conviction on the part of undecided voters that his specific policy proposals are superior. For Therese Safford, an employee of the Great Lakes Tribal Council in Wisconsin, he seemed to be well on the way. "Kerry sounds like he has a plan. I'm sure the president has a plan, too," she added, wryly, "but he didn't seem to know what the plan was". The Iraq war only took place, she suspected, "because he felt he needed to finish the unfinished business left by his father."
Mr Bush's curious use of language drew mockery from one influential corner of cable television, the Daily Show on Comedy Central, which is watched by many young adults. The president's assertion that "we are facing a group of folks who have such hatred in their hearts, they'll strike anywhere" made al-Qaida sound more like a harmless gathering of diners at an Italian restaurant, observed the presenter Jon Stewart.
"We're facing a group of folks? A group of folks is what you run into at the Olive Garden," he said.
I'm plenty used to it. There is no need to adopt the nasty tone you take on, but if it pleases you to communicate that way, please, don't let me stop you. I do believe it is you that could learn a thing or three instead of trying to shout down those you disagree with.
As to Kerry, as I noted Hugh Hewitt so cleverly put it: Saying Kerry won is like saying the Titanic beat the iceberg.
You are welcome to your own view. I'll go with my original observations that I posted last night and saw buttressed today.
I don't think I can be more plain: The polls said Kerry won and I say that was a nod to his style. The internals gave the substance to Bush and again, I can't disagree.
I make perfect sense.
If you guys carefully check out CBS News poll and ABC News poll after the debate, you will find advantage Bush. How? CBS conceals a crucial point, namely Bush picked up more undecideds than Kerry even though they thought Kerry won the debate points. ABC News showed that Kerry gained no new voters.
I listen to RUSH everyday and he did NOT agree with you that Bush kicked Kerry's butt at all. In fact he kept questioning why Bush didn't nail Kerry during several golden opportunities he was handed in the debate.
RUSH seems to think that even though Bush didn't challenge Kerry as he should have that some of Kerry's statements would come back to haunt him.
That is NOT the same as your claim the Bush kicked Kerry's butt. Far from it.
Believe your own perception. There are many who agree.
"Guess what, W isnt carter. No where near it.
And Kerry isnt Clinton. Now where near it."
True but Kerry does have Clinton's morals...and Carter's policies.
My link to my thread above takes you to the thread where we noted what he said exactly.
I'll also note that at this time that thread has over 13,200 views and over 500 replies.
I am absolutely correct in what I said. Rush said Bush won and won big.
You're only half right. Rush also noted that Kerry made a fatal mistake or a K.Dukakis moment when Kerry required US security to pass a Global Test. Bush didn't need to beat Kerry because Kerry will take himself out.
Rush flat out said Kerry lost due to what he said. Bush won.
I agree with this 100%. But my optimism made me believe Bush had a huge advantage going into this debate and could have easily put Kerry away.
As a result, when he not only didn't win the debate, but looked nervous, frustrated and weak during the last half...I felt like a fool for being so optimistic before the debate.
I'm still a positive person, and believe Bush will ultimately win in NOV. But I'm not going to pretend he won this debate. He didn't.
I listened to Rush today, too. And if you heard his final words of the broadcast, he made it clear that he was baiting his audience with criticism of Bush's performance in order to get a reaction.
What "newbies" are you talking about?
And does volunteering to work for a campaign require one be a cool-aid drinker who is unable to recognize when candidate lost a debate?
I don't disagree with you. I do think Rush wanted Bush to challenge Kerry a little harder, but I agree that Rush thought Kerry lost to Bush.
I listen to RUSH all day everyday and you're distorting what he said.
RUSH did NOT deny the polls that say Bush lost as you have, but said that Bush won on substance and in the end it would be shown he won when Kerry's statements come back to haunt him.
RUSH is not stupid. Or in denial as you are. He is just predicting the ultimate result of this debate will benefit Bush.
And I hope he's right.
Are you saying RUSH admitted he REALLY didn't wonder why Bush didn't nail Kerry on all the points he mentioned?
He really wanted Kerry's lies and BS to go unchallenged? I don't think so.
Are you serious All Kerry did was quote other people, drop some names, talk about the Kennedy's, 1950, Vietnam. President Bush spoke for himself told You an I what he had to say what he would do! On the other hand Kerry told us what General so and so, "world leader" so and so has to say about this and that, what president kennedy did in Cuban missle crisis. John Kerry never spoke for himeself unless he had someone elses quote to match what he thinks! John Kerry refers to us as the American People, While the President refers to us as His "fellow citizens"! I dont know about you but I"m not someones people, subject, or surf! But as the President Properly refered a fellow citizen!
i love my President--but boy, am i irked about last night... his speech today was great--but heck, it irritated me even more... he should have said those things last night... saying it today to people who are already agreeing with you just falls flat...
i'm praying Kerry picks up NOTHING from last night... and i will reluctantly wait to see what the next few days brings us... i will just fall apart if Bush begins to lose some of the battleground states he was pulling ahead in... Kerry cannot be president... and i cannot live through another tight race like 2000... i'm a mommy now...
If you are for real, keep those kinds of thoughts to yourself. Let the pundits spin it.
Yes. You do!
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