Posted on 09/10/2004 3:18:38 PM PDT by Howlin
Edited on 09/10/2004 4:53:58 PM PDT by Admin Moderator. [history]
Have at it.
******Transcript************
'KEY CHALLENGES TO NATIONAL GUARD DOCUMENTS ANSWERED'
Fri Sep 10 2004 19:03:11 ET
The biggest challenges to the authenticity of the documents featured in the 60 MINUTES segment on President Bush's Texas National Guard service are answered in a report to be broadcast on the CBS EVENING NEWS tonight (6:30-7:00 PM, ET/PT) on the CBS Television Network. The report states that the type style, typewriter and the superscript function critics claim did not exist at the time the memos from President Bush's former Texas National Guard commander were typed were indeed all available. In fact, similar raised "th" superscripts have been found on other National Guard documents the White House has released from the president's file.
Furthermore, Marcel Mately, the document and handwriting expert used to authenticate the documents for CBS News and 60 MINUTES, asserts that copies of the memos critics are examining have been degraded by reproduction though photocopying, computer scanning and faxing and are not reliable representations of the memos.
A transcript is attached:
BUSH DOCUMENTS
EVENING NEWS WITH DAN RATHER
9-10-04
Rather Lead In: There were attacks today on the CBS News "60 Minutes" report this week raising new questions about President Bush's Vietnam-era time in the Texas Air National Guard. The questions raised by our report include:
--Did a wealthy Texas oilman-friend of the Bush family use his influence with the speaker of the Texas House of Representatives .. to get George W. Bush a coveted slot in the National Guard .. keeping him out of the draft and any probable service IN Vietnam?
--Did Lieutenant Bush refuse a direct order from his commanding officer?
--Was Lieutenant. Bush suspended for failure to perform up to standards?
--Did Lieutenant Bush ever take a physical he was required and ordered to take? If not, why not?
--And did Lieutenant Bush, in fact, complete his commitment to the Guard?
These questions grew out of new witnesses and new evidence -- including documents written by Lieutenant Bush's squadron commander.
Today, on the internet and elsewhere, some people -- including many who are partisan political operatives -- concentrated not on the key questions the overall story raised but on the documents that were part of the support of the story.
They alleged the documents are FAKE.
Rather: MANY OF THOSE RAISING QUESTIONS ABOUT THE CBS DOCUMENTS HAVE FOCUSED ON SOMETHING CALLED SUPERSCRIPT... A KEY THAT AUTOMATICALLY TYPES A RAISED "TH". CRITICS CLAIM TYPEWRITERS DIDN'T HAVE THAT ABILITY IN THE 70S. BUT SOME MODELS DID....IN FACT, OTHER BUSH MILITARY RECORDS ALREADY OFFICIALLY RELEASED BY THE WHITE HOUSE ITSELF SHOW THE SAME SUPERSCRIPT.
HERE'S ONE..... FROM 1968.
SOME ANALYSTS OUTSIDE CBS SAY THEY BELIEVE THE TYPEFACE ON THESE MEMOS IS NEW TIMES ROMAN.... WHICH THEY CLAIM WAS NOT AVAILABLE IN THE 1970S.
BUT THE OWNER OF THE COMPANY THAT DISTRIBUTES THIS TYPING STYLE.... SAYS IT HAS BEEN AVAILABE SINCE 1931. DOCUMENT AND HANDWRITING EXAMINER MARCEL MATLEY ANALYZED THE DOCUMENTS FOR CBS NEWS.
HE SAYS HE BELIEVES THEY ARE REAL...BUT IS CONCERNED ABOUT EXACTLY WHAT IS BEING EXAMINED BY SOME OF THE PEOPLE QUESTIONING THE DOCUMENTS....BECAUSE DETIORATION OCCURS EACH TIME A DOCUMENT IS REPRODUCED.....AND THE DOCUMENTS BEING ANALYZED OUTSIDE OF CBS HAVEBEEN PHOTOCOPIED, FAXED, SCANNED AND DOWNLOADED.... AND ARE FAR REMOVED FROM THE DOCUMENTS CBS STARTED WITH WHICH WERE ALSO PHOTOCOPIES.
DOCUMENT AND HANDWRITING EXAMINER MARCEL MATLEY DID THIS INTERVIEW WITH US PRIOR TO THE 60 MINUTES BROADCAST.
HE LOOKED AT THE DOCUMENTS AND THE SIGNATURES OF COLONEL JERRY KILLIAN.... COMPARING KNOWN DOCUMENTS WITH THE COLONEL'S SIGNATURE ON THE NEWSLY DISCOVERED ONES.
Matley: "WE LOOK BASICALLY AT WHAT'S CALLED SIGNIFICANT OR INSIGNIFICANT FEATURES TO DETERMINE WHETHER IT'S THE SAME PERSON OR NOT. I HAVE NO PROBLEM IDENTIFYING THEM.
I WOULD SAY BASED ON OUR AVAILABLE HANDWRITING EVIDENCE, YES. THIS IS THE SAME PERSON."
Rather: MATLEY FINDS THE SIGNAT'URES TO BE SOME OF THE MOST COMPELLING EVIDENCE...WE TALKED TO HIM AGAIN TODAY BY SATELLITE.
Matley "SINCE IT IS REPRESENTED THAT SOME OF THEM ARE DEFINITELY HIS... THEN WE CAN CONCLUDE THEY ARE HIS SIGNATURES."
Rather: "ARE YOU SURPRISED THAT QUESTIONS COME ABOUT THESE. WE'RE NOT, BUT I WAS WONDERING IF YOU'RE SURPRISED."
Matley: "I KNEW GOING IN THAT THIS WAS DYNAMITE ONE WAY OR THE OTHER AND I KNEW THAT POTENTIALLY IT WAS FAR MORE POTENTIAL DAMAGE TO ME PROFESSIONALLY THAN BENEFIT ME. AND I KNEW THAT. BUT WE SEEK THE TRUTH. THAT'S WHAT WE DO. YOU'RE SUPPOSED TO PUT YOURSELF OUT. TO SEEK THE TRUTH AND TAKE WHAT COMES FROM IT."
Rather: ROBERT STRONG WAS AN ADMINISTRATIVE OFFICER FOR THE TEXAS AIR NATIONAL GUARD DURING THE VIETNAM YEARS. HE KNEW COL. JERRY KILLIAN, THE MAN CREDITED WITH WRITING THE DOCUMENTS.... AND PAPER WORK... LIKE THESE DOCUMENTS...WAS HIS SPECIALTY. HE IS STANDING BY HIS JUDGEMENT THAT THE DOCUMENTS ARE REAL.
Rather: "WHEN YOU READ THROUGH THESE DOCUMENTS, IS THERE ANY DOUBT IN YOUR MIND THAT THESE ARE GENUINE?"
Strong: "WELL,, THEY ARE COMPATIBLE WITH THE WAY BUSINESS WAS DONE AT THAT TIME. THEY ARE COMPATIBLE WITH THE MAN THAT I REMEMBER JERRY KILLIAN BEING. I DON'T SEE ANYTHING IN THE DOCUMENTS THAT'S DISCORDANT WITH WHAT WERE THE TIMES, WHAT WERE THE SITUATION OR WHAT WERE THE PEOPLE INVOLVED."
Rather: STRONG SAYS THE HIGHLY CHARGED POLITICAL ATMOSPHERE OF THE GUARD AT THE TIME... WAS PERFECTLY REPRESENTED IN THE NEW DOCUMENTS
Strong: "IT VERGED ON OUTRIGHT CORRUPTION IN TERMS OF THE FAVORS THAT WERE DONE, THE POWER THAT WAS TRADED. AND IT WAS UNCONSCIONABLE. FROM A MORAL AND ETHICAL STANDPOINT. IT WAS UNCONSCIONABLE."
Rather: IT IS THE INFORMATION IN THE NEW DOCUMENTS THAT IS MOST COMPELLING FOR PEOPLE FAMILIAR WITH PRESIDENT BUSH'S RECORD IN THE NATIONAL GUARD. AUTHOR JIM MORE HAS WRITTEN TWO BOOKS ON THE SUBJECT.
Rather: "YOU'VE STUDIED PRESIDENT BUSH'S RECORDS FOR 10 YEARS.. ARE THESE DOCUMENTS CONSISTENT WITH THE RECORD AS YOU KNOW IT?"
Moore: "THEY ARE ABSOLUTELY CONSISTENT WITH THE RECORDS AS I KNOW IT."
Rather: "PUT IT IN CONTEXT AND PERSPECTIVE FOR US ... THE STORY AND WHAT WE CALL THE COUNTERATTACK ON THE STORY. WHERE ARE WE RIGHT NOW?
Moore "I THINK WHAT HAS HAPPENED IS SOME INCRIMINATING DOCUMENTS HAVE COME OUT. THE WHITE HOUSE, YOU SHOULD REMEMBER, HAS NOT DISCREDITED THE DOCUMENTS. THEY'RE RELYING ON THE BLOGOSPHERE AND OTHER PEOPLE TO DO THAT. BECAUSE THE WHITE HOUSE PROBABLY KNOWS THESE DOCUMENTS ARE IN FACT REAL."
Rather Tag: The "60 Minutes" report was based NOT solely on the recovered documents .. but on a preponderance of evidence .. including documents that were provided by un-impeachable sources .. and interviews with former officials of the Texas National Guard. If any definitive evidence to the contrary of our story is found, we will report it.
So far, there is none.
Has anyone googled that expert that Dan had on?
Just trying to put some perspective on this.
I know, but I was hoping he'd forgo that for something this important and an excellent chance to smack down Juan.
Should Dan Rather and CBS News reveal the sources of the Bush memos?
http://www.cnn.com/CNN/Programs/lou.dobbs.tonight/
"Marcel Matley was also brought in by the liberal media to authenticate Vince Foster's suicide note and Kurt Kobain's suicide note."
Man, you're right about Cobain! Sheesh, is Courtney Love going to be dragged into this???
I guess that means that I can write any charge I want on a 3M Post-it and date it 1973, even stick it to a document from 1973, and they have to take the charge seriously?
-PJ
The Trusted Standard at Dan Rather's CBSNEWS.
http://www.tpo.net/politics/vince_foster/matley.html
Matley is only a handwriting examiner. He is not qualifed to commend on anything except for the signatures. And the fact that he is a San Francisco homo would disqualify him from this analysis:
CURRICULUM VITAE AND GENERAL RESUME
MARCEL B. MATLEY
DOCUMENT EXAMINER AND HANDWRITING EXPERT
BORN: Phoenix, AZ, September 21, 1933
SERVICES OFFERED:
Handwriting authentication and signature verification.
Identification of the maker of handwritten numerals
Genuineness of logs, diaries, and other writings in series.
Serve as either confidential consultant or testifying expert.
Oral or written opinion, which can be a full, illustrated, written report to facilitate settlement or in the form of a declaration under oath.
Question formulation to examine opponent's document examiner; also pertinent citations for cross-examination from learned treatises.
Identification of the writer of poison pen letters and anonymous writings.
Other aspects of questioned document examination.
Impeachment of erroneous, incomplete or incompetent expert handwriting opinion.
CREDENTIALS:
Certification with commendation, Paul de Sainte Colombe Center, January 28, 1981
Awarded Charter Membership Certificate for professional excellence, Paul de Sainte Colombe Center, April 8, 1982.
Consultant and mentor to other document examiners.
Honorary membership, National Questioned Document Association, March 1992.
Consulted by Texas Education Agency, Proprietary Schools Div. and other agencies.
San Francisco Tax Registration Certificate. Expiration date: 12-31-95
Activity Approval, Committee on Minimum Continuing Legal Education, The State Bar of California, March 27, 1995
EXPERT WITNESS:
Accepted in Federal Bankruptcy Court and Superior, Municipal Courts, and Administrative Law Courts of California.
Testimony in arbitration hearings and in depositions.
Complete listing of testimonies available upon request.
CLASSES AND LECTURES:
Private classes have been offered since 1981.
Lecture series titles SEMINARS AND WORKSHOPS IN HANDWRITING SCIENCES, for professionals and advanced students.
Organizer, co-producer and instructor at three annual SEMINARS IN DOCUMENT EXAMINATION, in San Francisco. Attendees came from across U.S. and Canada.
Presenter at NADE Conferences and Pre-conferences: 1992: HUMAN GRAPHIC MOTOR SEQUENCE. 1993, two-day intensive course: THE PHYSIOLOGY AND FORENSIC IDENTIFICATION OF HANDWRITING. 1994: ANSWERING CHALLENGES OF VOIR DIRE.
Presenter of Workshop, QUALIFICATIONS IMPEACHMENT, ABFE 1993 Conference.
1995 IGS-AFDE Joint Conference: A PROTOCOL FOR RESEARCH IN DISGUISED HANDWRITING AS ILLUSTRATED BY SLANT.
1995 AHAF Symposium: THE PHYSIOLOGY OF HANDWRITING, A HALF-DAY WORKSHOP.
LISTINGS:
FORENSIC REGISTER OF EXPERT CONSULTANTS, Bar Association of San Francisco.
Directories: INTERNATIONAL DIRECTORY OF HANDWRITING ANALYSTS; WHO'S WHO IN GRAPHOLOGY; and HANDWRITING ANALYSIS REGISTRY.
PUBLICATIONS:
STUDIES IN QUESTIONED DOCUMENTS. 1. "Photocopies in Document Examination." 2. "Exorcism of Ignorance; a Reply from a Holographic Expert." 3. "Logged Entries: Made Separately or Sequentially?" 4. "Exemplars for (XXX)." 5. "Health and Handwriting, an Annotated Bibliography." 6. "The Employing and Examining of the Expert." 7. "Reliability Testing of Expert Handwriting Opinions." 8. "Signature Disguise by Change of Slant."
FORGERY: DETECTION AND DEFENSE: A GUIDEBOOK FOR THE LEGAL PROFESSIONAL, 1988.
QDE INDEX: PERIODICAL ARTICLES IN ENGLISH ON DOCUMENT EXAMINATION, HANDWRITING EXPERTISE AND EXPERT TESTIMONY.
Also published in: AHAF JOURNAL; JOURNAL OF THE NATIONAL ASSOCIATION OF DOCUMENT EXAMINERS; COMMUNIQUE, THE DOCUMENT EXAMINER'S NEWSLETTER; CALIFORNIA PARALEGAL MAGAZINE; AT ISSUE (San Francisco Association of Legal Assistants); WRITE EXTENSION; AHAA DIALOGUE: JOURNAL OF FORENSIC IDENTIFICATION; NATIONAL PARALEGAL MAGAZINE (Scheduled); VANGUARD; THE NATIONAL DOCUMENT EXAMINER; SAN FRANCISCO ATTORNEY; SCIENTIFIC SLEUTHING REVIEW.
Other writings in the field, published and unpublished. The published books and monographs have been marketed to professionals nationally and internationally.
Published works in other fields.
EDUCATION:
Saint Francis College, El Cajon, CA 1952-54. Liberal arts, Science.
Immaculate Heart Seminary, University of San Diego, San Diego, CA 1954-60. Courses included Philosophy, Logic, Rational Psychology, History, Rhetoric.
Immaculate Heart College, Los Angeles, CA. MALS, June 1963
San Diego State College, San Diego, CA, 1962-63. l Graduate studies, Political Science.
1979-80 Privately instructed by Rose Toomey, author of HEALTH CLUES IN HANDWRITING.
Seminar on the handwriting of criminals, conducted by Ted Widmer of San Francisco.
1991 and 1992 National Conference of NADE, and other seminars and conferences.
On-going research in the legal, forensic and academic literature.
Primary research in methods of disguise, writing with the opposite hand, and others.
SPECIAL RESOURCES:
Personal collection of more than 1500 books, monographs and papers in handwriting science and document examination, along with current subscriptions..
Developed a computerized data base of approximately 4500 articles in forensic and legal periodicals. This is an on-going research project, covering 1870s to date.
Memberships in NADE and AHAF bring access to extensive lending libraries of professional literature.
Microphotography and optical filters.
Optics such as stereoscopic microscope and other tools for close, accurate observation and measurement of questioned handwriting documents.
Specialized equipment such as Kinderprint Indentation Materializer.
Association with professionals having specialized skill and equipment so that unique or unusual requests can be referred to highly qualified colleagues.
MEMBERSHIPS:
National Association of Document Examiners (NADE). Chairman of 1993 Conference in San Francisco. Committee memberships: Editorial committee for the Association's Journal.
American Handwriting Analysis Foundation (AHAF), an international organization based in San Jose, CA. Foundation Librarian and member of the Board.
Borrowing member of American Association of Handwriting Analysis Research Library, Downers Grove, IL.
International Graphonomics Society, Society for the Science and Technology of Handwriting, headquartered at University of Nijmegen, The Netherlands.
Vidocq Society, Philadelphia, PA.
The American Society for Testing and Material. Committee E30 of Forensic Sciences.
Participant, Crime Laboratory Proficiency Testing program of the American Society of Crime Laboratory Directors, Inc.
REFERENCES:
Professional references will be made available upon request.
(09-06-95)
That's it! That's it! You've figured it out. Omigod, you're a genius. Killian took the memo paper to a print shop and used their big TYPESETTING PRINT MACHINE to run off the memo! Of course! THAT'S where the superscript came from. Oh - DUH!
Yep, I didn't pick up on that at the time but you're right. That's the kind of talking someone does when they want to do a REAL "CYA," instead of a forged one....LOL
And that's only if they don't have dutiful children that tell them about FOX news. I can honestly say I haven't watched Continually Bogus News Nightly for the past 6ish years.
Along the lines of a Kerry "bring it on". Dan will be crying soon.
No is winning? LOL.
They told us that also. We said we would if they would answer their phones. Which they haven't been doing all day.
Marcel Matley & Vince Foster info:
http://fennel.assumption.edu/~guest/view/1996/View0396.htm
Then the program turned to Marcel Matley, identified as a "handwriting examiner" with no further credentials given, who offered his opinion that the "suicide" note is genuine. Matley believes that the "deteriorated copy" of the note.... that is, it's been copied over too many times.... and the "stress" Foster was presumably under account for the differences in handwriting. He then went on to show how Foster used different styles of letters in the genuine samples, such as both cursive and block letter "s", for example, and how the same multiple styles appear in the note; and from this he concluded that the same person wrote both the note and the samples known to be genuine
Dan: "I have an unimpeachable source..."
>> Ask Killian's Son or his Widow. They told CBS the memos were wrong, but their words were dismissed.
Can't be, cause Dan Rather stated clearly on tonight's broadcast that no one from that time and place has disputed the documents.
Really? Foster's too???
When a document is copied once or several times, it is reduced by a fraction. That is why you don't get edge lines when you copy. This document was copied many times so the line spacing will not be true. Measuring line spacing from a copied document is a waste of time.
Since CBS will not come clean, there must be an independent investigation.
CBS is compelled to stand by the documents because to do otherwise is to abdicate all responsibility to the anonymity of the source, and thereby to open themselves to a charge of fraud.
Congress should investigate fraud but it should ask the better question: Has CBS in this matter properly exercised its privilege to use the public's airwaves?
If not, CBS's access should be revoked and granted to another.
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