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Keyes: Constitution protects machine gun ownership [describes Israel as an example]
Chicago Sun-Times ^ | August 25, 2004 | SCOTT FORNEK

Posted on 08/25/2004 2:09:41 PM PDT by yonif

Declaring "the front line of the war against terror once again involves the citizens," Republican Alan Keyes said Tuesday he believes the U.S. Constitution grants properly trained private individuals the right to own and carry machine guns.

"You're not talking about giving citizens access to atom bombs and other things," the former presidential candidate said. "That's ridiculous."

But the GOP nominee for U.S. Senate argued the founding fathers intended the Second Amendment to allow people to carry the types of weapons "customarily carried in those days by ordinary infantry soldiers."

"And, yes, does that mean that in this day and age people would have the right to have access to the kind of the weapons our ordinary infantry people have access to? With proper training and so forth to make sure that they could handle them successfully, that's exactly what was meant."

Keyes made the remarks at a news conference he called to attack the "ideological extremism" of his Democratic opponent, state Sen. Barack Obama.

The Republican lit into Obama for voting against a bill in Springfield earlier this year that would have allowed people who use handguns to fend off home invaders or attackers to argue self-defense as a possible legal defense against prosecution for violating any local anti-firearm possession ordinances.

The measure passed the Legislature with bi-partisan support, but Gov. Blagojevich vetoed it last week.

Keyes called Obama's vote against the measure an "appalling . . . lack of common sense."

"This seems to be a man who is absolutely determined to make the world safe for criminals, while making sure that law-abiding citizens have no opportunity to defend themselves against the criminals," Keyes said.

Keyes said he supports a system in which guns would be treated similarly to automobiles, with people being required to undergo different levels of training before they would be allowed to own and carry various sorts of weapons.

"I always remind -- even people who support the Second Amendment -- that it has two parts: the right to keep and bear" arms, Keyes said. " 'Bear' means to carry, to carry around. . . . I think it has been proven empirically that . . . allowing law-abiding citizens this access to conceal-carry actually reduces crime."

Keyes said he owns two firearms himself: a 9mm Glock semi-automatic pistol and a .38-caliber "six-shooter." But he said he does not keep them at his new home in Calumet City.

Keyes only indirectly answered a reporter's question about whether he would "be comfortable if the entire society was walking around with Uzis, as long as they were properly trained."

"Have you ever been to Israel?" Keyes asked the reporter. "Because if you've ever been to Israel, you wouldn't ask that question. And in the midst of terrifying dangers, you walk around the streets of Israel and you see every other person carrying arms and Uzis and so forth and so on, and believe me, you do not feel less safe on that account."

Machine guns, or fully automatic weapons, are firearms that fire multiple shots with a single pull of the trigger.

Thomas Ahern, a spokesman for the Chicago division of the U.S. Bureau of Alcohol Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives, said private individuals can only own such weapons if they apply with the bureau and clear a series of hurdles, including a background check, fingerprinting and the OK of local law enforcement officials. Additional paperwork is required any time the weapon is to be transported.

"It is heavily regulated," Ahern said.

A spokesman for Obama defended the Democrat's record on guns.

"Certainly he believes in the Second Amendment, but he also believes in common-sense gun safety laws, such as the federal ban on military-style assault weapons." said spokesman Robert Gibbs. "If Alan Keyes truly was concerned about public safety, that would be his position, as well."


TOPICS: Foreign Affairs; Front Page News; Israel; News/Current Events; War on Terror
KEYWORDS: bang; banglist; gunownership; israel; keyes; waronterrorism
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To: Willie Green
"And please inform us, O Great Protector of our 2nd Amendment Rights, how that differs from current restrictions and changes we can anticipate if your buddy Obama is elected."

So what you're saying here is that as far as Second Amendment rights, there isn't a lick of difference between Keyes and Obama?

101 posted on 08/25/2004 4:51:07 PM PDT by Luis Gonzalez (Sin Patria, pero sin amo)
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To: EternalVigilance; Willie Green

Ooooo....that's gonna leave a mark...



sure will..

thanks for making your "mark" so clearly.
< / cheers and accolades for licensing >

alan may INDEED be the best thing since sliced bread on the table since Ryan dropped out... but licensing of firearms is really NOT a good idea... The GOA does not support that. I don't think the NRA does either.


102 posted on 08/25/2004 4:54:41 PM PDT by Robert_Paulson2 (the madridification of our election is now officially underway.)
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To: Robert_Paulson2

Keyes didn't say what you said.

But you know that.


103 posted on 08/25/2004 4:57:00 PM PDT by EternalVigilance (A REPUBLIC, IF YOU CAN KEEP IT...)
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To: mrsmith
"...the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed."

I'm sorry, maybe your version of the Second has some extra wording that mine does not have...does your read "...shall not be infringed except by the States"?

104 posted on 08/25/2004 4:57:07 PM PDT by Luis Gonzalez (Sin Patria, pero sin amo)
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To: yonif

Wow! A position I agree with Keyes on. Plus, he'll have the teenage gangbanger vote, and no one else will take that block away from him ;0)


105 posted on 08/25/2004 4:58:02 PM PDT by Chad Fairbanks (I think the mistake a lot of us make is thinking the state-appointed shrink is our friend.)
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To: Blood of Tyrants
Keyes should have said, "If you break into my house while I am there, you will find out, won't you?"

Have you seen that house?

Does anyone know if he's ever spent a single night there?

"The House" (scroll down a couple of inches, it's the first photo on the page)

106 posted on 08/25/2004 4:58:39 PM PDT by Don Joe (We've traded the Rule of Law for the Law of Rule.)
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To: Don Joe

My how things have changed around here.
I see a lot of burning bridges.

It's actually quite stunning.


107 posted on 08/25/2004 4:59:03 PM PDT by Robert_Paulson2 (the madridification of our election is now officially underway.)
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To: Robert_Paulson2

If Keyes is the best thing since sliced bread, what was the big thing BEFORE sliced bread? I've always wondered about that...


108 posted on 08/25/2004 5:00:21 PM PDT by Chad Fairbanks (I think the mistake a lot of us make is thinking the state-appointed shrink is our friend.)
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To: outlawcam
"Why on Earth are you frightened to express what you believe?!"

Because EV will try to get you thrown out of the forum if he doesn't agree with what you say.

109 posted on 08/25/2004 5:00:33 PM PDT by Luis Gonzalez (Sin Patria, pero sin amo)
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To: BibChr

Where in the Constitution does it say anything about properly trained? It says it's a right. Period.


110 posted on 08/25/2004 5:01:28 PM PDT by joesbucks
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To: Luis Gonzalez

Try??????

Looks to me like he has been quite successful.


111 posted on 08/25/2004 5:02:02 PM PDT by Neets (Conservative women LOVE BURLEY MEN, not GIRLIE DEMS.!)
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To: Don Joe
Sheesh. You got me. I'm grossly unfair. I favor people who support the same things I support. Guilty as charged.

I support America 100% and, not surprisingly, I also favor people who do likewise. Socialists, liberals, communists, trolls and other America haters all get kicked out of here fairly quickly. Free Republic is a place for "like minded" conservatives who wish to work together toward accomplishing our mutual goals of restoring constitutional government to our beloved nation. It's not a liberal debating society or a place where we dump on our conservative candidates.

Alan Keyes is one of the most qualified conservative candidates I've ever had the pleasure of meeting or working with. It makes absolutely zero sense to have so-called like minded conservatives dumping on him or his supporters in this forum.
112 posted on 08/25/2004 5:02:09 PM PDT by Jim Robinson
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To: EternalVigilance

he didn't say "licensed like automobiles"



then I stand corrected...

"Keyes said he supports a system in which guns would be treated similarly to automobiles, with people being required to undergo different levels of training before they would be allowed to own and carry various sorts of weapons."

sounds like a state run permission system to me...
as in "before they were allowed."



but then, you knew that.


113 posted on 08/25/2004 5:02:36 PM PDT by Robert_Paulson2 (the madridification of our election is now officially underway.)
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To: Don Joe

Apparently, disparaging comments about President Bush are perfectly in-bounds, and not to be responded to.

Good to know.


114 posted on 08/25/2004 5:03:36 PM PDT by DaughterOfAnIwoJimaVet (Some of my best friends are white, middle-class males.)
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To: Luis Gonzalez; mrsmith
Where does the Second Amendment impose limitations on the sorts of weapons citizens should be able to carry (bear)?

not explicitly in the 2A, but at the time it was written, it was generally understood, and explicitly spelled out in State Constitutions, that all males (not just the the smaller group of voting citizens) had a required militia duty, and were obligated to be trained for such duty.

so "owning and carrying with proper training" will pass.

115 posted on 08/25/2004 5:03:40 PM PDT by Oztrich Boy ("Despise not the jester. Often he is the only one speaking the truth")
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To: Robert_Paulson2
Alan is not calling for the licensing of "firearms".
As anyone of reasonable intelligence can see from his remarks.

How to handle advanced weapons like machine guns, especially considering the 2nd should be incorporated under the 14th, is an interesting question.
Keyes put it in the context of the original intent of the Second which was to protect both the individual RKBA and the state militias from federal restrictions.

116 posted on 08/25/2004 5:03:54 PM PDT by mrsmith ("Oyez, oyez! All rise for the Honorable Chief Justice... Hillary Rodham Clinton ")
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To: outlawcam
We're forbidden to explain this to you,here on FR.

And it's the WRONG question anyway.

117 posted on 08/25/2004 5:04:03 PM PDT by nopardons
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To: Don Joe

I did and that's the last I'll about about it.


118 posted on 08/25/2004 5:04:50 PM PDT by nopardons
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To: monkeyshine
"He actually cares about ideas!" Very well put. That's why I like him. He's a real patriot and whether I agree or disagree with any particular issue with him I highly admire that his view is well thought out and logical. I think I could trust him.

I'll pause here at post 22 and agree with you, before reading on to what I'm sure will be a bunch of Keyes bashing.

Ironic, a thread on the 2nd ammendment as a personal right, Keyes in agreement with Dershowitz and Tribe, and I bet Freepers will find fault. Go figure.

119 posted on 08/25/2004 5:07:15 PM PDT by SJackson (You'd be amazed the number of people who wanna introduce themselves to you in the men's room J.Kerry)
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To: Jim Robinson

I also support America 100%, and have an intense dislike for "Socialists, liberals, communists, trolls and other America haters" and don't want them around me.
I'll be damned if I will go crawling to Uncle Sam and ask his permission so I can carry a gun.

How do YOU feel about this issue, Jim? Should we, as Keyes is proposing, get permission from the government in order to own weapons, or is it our inherent right to do so?


120 posted on 08/25/2004 5:07:46 PM PDT by Chad Fairbanks (I think the mistake a lot of us make is thinking the state-appointed shrink is our friend.)
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