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To: PatrickHenry; betty boop; marron; Tribune7
Sigh. What a truly desperate attempt to deny God!

House of cards ... from the article:

Most of these universes would be unable to support life. But if there were enough universes, a tiny fraction of them should have just the right parameters to give rise to a cosmos like ours….

Rather, he suggests that if there exists some process by which parent universes spawn new universes with small, random changes in their physical parameters, and if the characteristics of a universe determine how many progeny it produces, then fine-tuned universes like ours can arise by cosmological natural selection.

In particular, if new universes are produced by black-hole bounces, then universes in which stars (and thus black holes) can form are 'fitter' than others. After a period of time, you would expect the universes produced by this process to have a set of cosmological parameters that maximizes the number of black holes that can form.

Lee Smolin avoids the fact of a beginning. Even if he were to speculate a “tree of life” for cosmology and the test he proposed failed to falsify his speculation, there would nevertheless be a beginning. All cosmologies require this – multi-verse, multi-world, cyclic, ekpyrotic, imaginary time.

There is always a beginning. Hawking, Steinhardt and other cosmologist/physicists recognize the theological significance and try much more rigorously than Smolin to defeat the fact of a beginning, evidently also in order to deny God.

By comparison, Smolin's speculation is much ado about nothing.

Also, Smolin is trying to employ Darwin’s “random mutations plus natural selection” to avoid the plentitude argument, i.e. that anything that can happen has. But because we know there was a beginning, there cannot be an infinity of opportunity. The author evidently realizes this because he pleads "But if there were enough universes, a tiny fraction..."

6 posted on 08/07/2004 3:06:36 PM PDT by Alamo-Girl
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To: Alamo-Girl

A-G, the idea that all can be explained by the measurable is purely and simply blind faith of the most irrational kind.


7 posted on 08/07/2004 3:12:54 PM PDT by Tribune7
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To: Alamo-Girl
There is always a beginning.

Even if there weren't a beginning--that there were a beginning is just a guess since some three-year old asked gramps where he came from--that would not imply that an earth, our earth, necessarily has to exist. In an infinity all possible things will happen--that hypothesis is a violation of stochastic principles.

10 posted on 08/07/2004 3:20:58 PM PDT by RightWhale (Withdraw from the 1967 UN Outer Space Treaty and establish property rights)
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To: Alamo-Girl
....the anthropic principle states that our universe must look the way it does (that is, primed for life), must have been created by God because if it didn't wasn't, we wouldn't be here to argue about it.

Works either way, don't it. :^)

14 posted on 08/07/2004 3:27:38 PM PDT by OSHA (Total Waste: Using your God given intelligence to reason Him out of existence.)
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To: Alamo-Girl
Lee Smolin avoids the fact of a beginning.

And do most people that believe in a god.

So, did God have a beginning? If you say "no" then why do you think the universe had to have one?

16 posted on 08/07/2004 3:32:55 PM PDT by mc6809e
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To: Alamo-Girl

I can't resist this subject. Everyone has an opinion. Observations don't yet rule out one answer or the other, but seem to suggest our favorite conclusion -- whatever that may be. So we keep on looking. The topic doesn't grow old. Not to me anyway.


23 posted on 08/07/2004 4:06:43 PM PDT by PatrickHenry (Felix, qui potuit rerum cognoscere causas.)
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To: Alamo-Girl
there would nevertheless be a beginning. All cosmologies require this

Not if the cosmology allows closed timelike loops or is infinite in time (e.g. a de Sitter universe). Moreover, a beginning--particularly a beginning to time itself--does not imply a cause.

35 posted on 08/07/2004 5:20:50 PM PDT by Physicist
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To: Alamo-Girl

God cannot be proven or disproven by logic. He lives in your heart or He does not.


49 posted on 08/07/2004 8:33:33 PM PDT by FormerACLUmember (Free Republic is 21st Century Samizdat)
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To: Alamo-Girl
There are some American Indian (inter alia) cosmologies that do not require a beginning. Likewise Newton assumed an infinite-eternal universe (he needed infinite extent to avoid Olber's Paradox) Remember, the Indians clame to have lived here in the Southwest forever. (To deny such may risk the wrath of the Lords of Xibalba.)
57 posted on 08/07/2004 9:12:22 PM PDT by Doctor Stochastic (Vegetabilisch = chaotisch is der Charakter der Modernen. - Friedrich Schlegel)
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To: Alamo-Girl
Sigh. What a truly desperate attempt to deny God!

You might view it that way, but I thing the science behind this argues, not against God, but against an interpretation of God.

77 posted on 08/08/2004 5:15:01 AM PDT by js1138 (In a minute there is time, for decisions and revisions which a minute will reverse. J Forbes Kerry)
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To: Alamo-Girl
"if, if, if, and if.

So, it could be wrong...but at least it's science."

Uh-huh. Scient if ic.

197 posted on 08/09/2004 7:46:35 AM PDT by azhenfud ("He who is always looking up seldom finds others' lost change...")
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