Posted on 08/01/2004 6:08:53 PM PDT by NeoCaveman
Whats your point??? A flat Tax and a NST are not the same thing. I too am for NST. A flat tax would still require the tax police to make sure that people pay what they owe.
Or the taxes you paid for the corporations, which are hidden/built-in to the purchasing price of every single item you have ever bought.
Your opposition to the FairTax has failed to include the benefits derived from casting complete sunshine into the hidden tax system we all labor under now, and routing out the duplicative and deceptive taxation that goes without any amount of scrutiny under current systems.
My apologies. We were talking about apples and oranges here.
All great reasons to stop taxing business.
Or the taxes you paid for the corporations, which are hidden/built-in to the purchasing price of every single item you have ever bought.First, I was commenting on a post that stated the bulk of our current tax burden is hidden. This is just not true. Second, the incidence of corporate taxes is a matter of debate. I believe that consumers pay some of the corporate tax in higher prices but not nearly the full amount.
The NRST proposal that's been festering in the halls of Congress is nothing but a grotesque distortion and convoluted misrepresentation of economic theory. Advocates of this "plan" clearly do not trust the American People to understand the true ramifications, and are poised to agressively shove a false paradigm down their dumbed-down throats. IMHO, the minimum response to such a beligerant abuse of power should be the time-honored American tradition of tar-and-feathering such dishonest political scalawags.
I already paid taxes on my savings. Switching to a sales tax would mean I get to pay taxes on that same money again. Yeah, sounds fair to me, not.
Then you should be very unhappy to learn that you get hit again for another 20-25% out of your purchases today under the income/payroll tax system.
The following article covers the mechanism on how the current Federal tax system propagates and is embedded into consumption expenditure.
DO YOU PAY YOUR INCOME TAX
AT THE SUPERMARKET?
by D. Sherman Cox J.D. L.L.M. Taxation
The 24% in the article considers only those factors actually paid to government out of imposititions on business in complying with the income, payroll, excise & tariff tax laws.
I refer you to the section of the following article about the Income/Payroll tax system and its impact on our economy "A. Hidden Upstream Taxes. " paragraph 39.
"[39] Dr. Dale Jorgenson, Chairman of Harvard University's Economics Department, believes that the price of goods and services are inflated by about 20 percent or more by upstream taxes consumers ultimately bear. In a recent paper Dr. Jorgenson estimated the built-in taxes contained in the price of goods and services. /22/ In the chart above, he quantified the hidden component of tax, estimating that producer prices would fall on repeal of upstream taxes an average of about 22 percent."
Looking at the accompanying chart, the range of values from industry to industry appears to be about 12-25%.
Economists Gary and Aldonna Robbins of the Texas-based Institute for Public Policy examined the case of dry cleaning a shirt, with a particular eye toward uncovering the hidden costs of taxes in price.
The Robbin's attributed over 33.6% of "consumer prices" to be due to federal taxation passed on to the customer.
The Federal Tax System
http://www.cbo.gov/showdoc.cfm?index=2125&sequence=0&from=1#pt1
From the Table 1 we may extract the proportionate contributions of each sector of taxes as they contribute to consumer price for the year 2000.
Those tax components which will not change prices as a consequence of enactment of HR2525
============================
Adjust for the approximate reduction of interest & cost of tax compliance (
Adjust for a conservative $800 billion cost of tax compliance, (The Flat Tax; Hall & Rabushka, '95,What the Income Tax Costs the American People: quoting James L. Payne estimates 65cents for each dollar of revenue collected).
Estimated change in consumption prices as consequence of enactment of a National Retail Sales Tax, repealing all business income and payroll taxes:
33.6*(1386.5/1945) = 23.9% reduction in consumption prices
Which more than verifies the Jorgenson empirical study of 22% fall in producer prices.
The two sources are in reasonable agreement, and I see 20-25% a reasonable value to expect retail prices to fall, not only for customers here in the United States, but in our exports as well making them far more competitive on international markets.
Oh YES YES YES!!
I will bake the man a cake if it goes through.
(Can you tell I am being taxed to death??)
You missed the point. Keep in mind I too am pessimistic we will ever see true tax reform. But you made a statement that misses the important point.
You said:
"I can tell you exactly how much I paid in income and payroll (the bulk of our tax load) taxes last year. I would have to add up every purchase I made last year to tell you what I paid in state sales taxes, which, for all but the most anal retentive spenders, would be virtually impossible."
The point you missed is this:
As an individual you would not have to keep records of sales taxes just as you are not required now to keep such records. Therefore, the proposed system would eliminate the need for you to keep records of your income for TAX PURPOSES. Surely everyone sees that this would make life simpler.
As a businessperson, you would keep records of sales taxes just as you do now as an addon to all sales (you pass on taxes through sales).
You responded to someone that said current taxes are hidden. Yes they are. In every product we buy, there are a series of taxes that are imposed from obtaining production materials, through production, through payroll taxes and so on. Each of these taxes are part of the price of the final product and no one can know exactly what portion of the final price is due to taxes but it is known to be huge.
Gee Willie, I thought you'd like it as it would make American products more competitive and it would tax imports. Unlike today where American products are at a disadvantage due to corporate taxation.
As per your usual, your rant contains not a single ounce of substance.
Granted, but active involvement of everyone - right down to "Joe Sixpack" - is essential. For all their inherent stupidity, the dims know this and strive for a high turnout rate.
Our Founding Fathers were some of the wisest and most foresightful men ever to congregate and create a republic, but I'd be willing to bet that even they never anticipated such a massive number of non-participants in the population.
1) Not every man woman and child living in the US will get the compensation (actually an allowance, they can spend it or keep it)for taxes imputed to be paid up to the poverty level, only LEGAL US residents, which means millions of illegals now paying little will pay more.
2) As far as figuring out how much taxes you will have paid under the new system, just keep your receipts with the tax paid shown on them, and add them up periodically.
3) Do you like our current system and do you think it is fair now?
As an individual you would not have to keep records of sales taxes just as you are not required now to keep such records. Therefore, the proposed system would eliminate the need for you to keep records of your income for TAX PURPOSES. Surely everyone sees that this would make life simpler.How much did you pay in state sales taxes last year?
You responded to someone that said current taxes are hidden. Yes they are.I responded to someone who said the bulk of our current burden is hidden. No they aren't.
Each of these taxes are part of the price of the final product and no one can know exactly what portion of the final price is due to taxes but it is known to be huge.You need to look up "incidence of corporate taxes" on Google. No one is sure who bares the burden of corporate taxes (consumers, capital holders, or labor).
Still awaiting your positive alternative.
Many states have said if the Fair Tax HR 25 were inacted they would most likely to the same, especially since they will be the tax collector.
*After 4 years of these discussions, still awaiting your positive alternative...
*crickets*
Game, set, match.
We all know the Democrats will immediately cry "foul" because the poor and middle class will be most affected. How will they redistribute the wealth?
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