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To: livius

Agreed. This is a war, and certainly in wartime some extraodinary measures must be taken. This is a bit different though: Under what conditions do we declare victory? At least for the Japanese in the internment camps during WWII, there was a scenario where their rights would be restored: when Japan was defeated. Is the war on terror a war with an end? Unseating the Taliban did not end terrorism. Defeating Iraq didn't do it. It's not a war against Islamofascist terror, either, so what about the ELF? Or the Basques? If we get a lefist administration, will they declare Operation Rescue a terror organization? Before I'm willing to sacrifice my freedom for a wartime effort, I think I'm within my rights to know in what scenario my rights will be restored. When most people talk about these sorts of infringements on our rights (for example, being allowed to take pictures of tunnels) I hear them talking about two periods of time: pre 9-11 and post 9-11. For example: "In a post 9-11 US, it is dangerous to allow people to have pictures of landmarks because they could use them in planning a terror attack". I do not hear people saying "Until we have defeated terror, it is dangerous...". That way of thinking frightens me.


91 posted on 07/23/2004 5:04:49 AM PDT by kyguy
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To: kyguy

ELF and the Basques are not a serious threat to the US. They might be, however, in the hands of the Islamic terrorists. For example, there is considerable suspicion arising from the investigationg being conducted in Spain now that ETA and the Moroccan AQ cell were working together in the Madrid bombing. Without that influence, things like ELF, which has a tiny, crazy membership and no mainstream support, can be controlled through normal criminal control activities. It is only with the influence of a worldwide terrorist network behind it, and one which operates by disguising itself behind religion, that things like ELF could move beyond setting fire to car dealerships and become a serious threat.

The problem is that we have not been attacked by a state and we are not fighting against a state, but an ideology. Here we must refer to history: Islam has been on the attack since its inception, and in fact, it spread by the sword. Mohammed fought 70+ battles, and only one of them was defensive. Europe was threatened by Islam on and off for centuries, and Islam came very close to overrunning Europe but was stopped at the gates of Vienna. The fight against Muslim pirates - who were not in it just for the money, but were taking and enslaving European and American sailors - was one of the US's first battles.

Islam only subsides when it knows it has no agressive power. In the past, it was overtly supported by states, which gave it military power, and when these states faded, so did Islam's aggressiveness, or at any rate, its power to be aggressive. However, it has always had a tendency to freelance, and now, with AQ, it has virtually cut loose from state support. Any state supporting it must, of course, be punished and prevented from doing so, which has been our objective over the last few years. But because Islam believes any non-Muslim to be the enemy, this war is being conducted by ruthless armed civilians against peaceful, unarmed civilians.

I think we will only know it is over when the attacks stop or die down. Various things may happen to produce this: we may kill enough of the leaders to discourage their followers; other countries (such as China) may become involved and take savage action against the countries where the terrorists are known to live (such as Pakistan), regardless of whether the terrorists are being actively supported by the government of that state or not; or some completely unpredictable factor may disrupt them.

This is a completely different war from any before. I agree that we don't want to be in a situation where perfectly routine actions suddenly become suspect. I often buy air tickets at the last minute, for example, and it's a nuisance to have all my luggage torn apart because this is a "red flag." I can still remember the days when you could buy a ticket and sprint through the gates to the plane just as it was about to leave!

I agree that the level of petty inconveniences is pretty irritating. But we're not losing freedom of speech, freedom to travel, etc., and we're not about to. If our enemies win, though, we'd lose it all.


100 posted on 07/23/2004 6:02:59 AM PDT by livius
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