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Petite skull reopens human ancestry debate
New Scientist ^ | 7/1/04 | Will Knight

Posted on 07/02/2004 7:55:48 AM PDT by Michael_Michaelangelo

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To: nmh
Too bad the premise of an evolutionist is that God doesn't exist and if He does He is too stupid to create humans and all we see.

Evolution != atheism. To assert this after it has been debunked so many times on FR is to admit that you are either a liar or willfully ignorant. Which is it?

Someday when you're feeling more rational, a revelation may come to you too! Evolutionists insist on using their finite yardstick of questionable "knowledge" to explain through theories how humans "evolved". Never mind that these "theories" are evolving all the time and contradict eachother.

Explain how the "theories" contradict one another. Thus far you have thrown out nothing but empty assertions to the effect that evolution is false, but you have not once attempted to refute any of the mountains of evidence that has been presented to support it.

You sound like someone who isn't happy that the facts don't support your view, so you're throwing a temper tantrum and claiming that reality is how you want it to be in spite of the evidence. Because you have no way to refute the evidence for evolution, you simply flat-out ignore it.

It takes more "faith" to believe in evolution than creation since when evidence is objectively examined it supports creation.

I'm sure, then, that you can justify this claim by presenting the evidence and explaining how it fits better with the account called "creation". Thus far you have not done this, so why should I take you seriously?
61 posted on 07/02/2004 8:42:54 PM PDT by Dimensio (Join the Monthly Internet Flash Mob: http://tinyurl.com/3xj9m)
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To: nmh
Forget evidence, objectively evaluated that contradicts your beliefs.

You're obviously speaking from personal experience.
62 posted on 07/02/2004 8:43:32 PM PDT by Dimensio (Join the Monthly Internet Flash Mob: http://tinyurl.com/3xj9m)
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To: VadeRetro
We are then expected to believe that since science knows nothing, it can't rule out even the most patent nonsense.

Of course. The problem is that non-scientists don't understand the reasons for scientists being so reluctant to assert anything. It's not that we don't know anything, it's that our interpretation of an observation can so easily change, for a number of reasons.

I'm well aware that the devoted creationists don't want to understand why we scientists apparently flip-flop and disagree so much; the only reason I participate in these is because the arguments keep me sharp. I don't expect to convince someone who doesn't want to let go of their cherished misconceptions!

63 posted on 07/02/2004 9:25:19 PM PDT by exDemMom (Think like a liberal? Oxymoron!)
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To: Dimensio

Okay. First, humans didn't "evolve from apes". Humans and apes share a common ancestor.

Show me the proof of this statement.


64 posted on 07/02/2004 9:39:46 PM PDT by sawmill trash (NADER !!! NADER !!! NADER !!! NADER !!! NADER !!! NADER !!! NADER !!! NADER !!!)
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To: sawmill trash
Show me the proof of this statement.

There is no "proof". Science isn't about proof, it's about evidence. There is, in fact, quite a bit of evidence for the statement.

I note that you're ducking the issue of the fact that you demonstrated a fundamental lack of understanding of evolution theory.
65 posted on 07/02/2004 11:47:28 PM PDT by Dimensio (Join the Monthly Internet Flash Mob: http://tinyurl.com/3xj9m)
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To: nmh
Humans NEVER evolved from animals.

Sure we did. And we're still animals. (What did you think we were, plants?)

To suggest they never walked on two feet is contradictory

How exactly is it contradictory, and what does it contradict?

but hey, believe whatever you wish.

I wish to believe in whatever the evidence indicates is truth, and it indicates evolution.

There is nothing true about evolution and never will be.

So it's not true that populations change across generations? Fascinating.

66 posted on 07/03/2004 2:55:36 AM PDT by Ichneumon ("...she might as well have been a space alien." - Bill Clinton, on Hillary, "My Life", p. 182)
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To: nmh
LOL!

The astute reader will note the complete inadequacy of nmh's response. He made an ignorant, arrogant statement. I provided facts showing just how ignorant and arrogant it was.

Nowhere does he do the adult thing and say, "okay, I was wrong, I withdraw the unfair accusation I made" -- or even attempt to explain why my demonstration of his goofiness doesn't apply. Instead, all he can do in response is shamelessly laugh (as if being shown to be a fool is something which amuses him), and then go flying off in an attempt to change the subject:

Too bad the premise of an evolutionist is that God doesn't exist and if He does He is too stupid to create humans and all we see.

This is not the premise of "an evolutionist". Don't dig your hole any deeper, you've already shown yourself ignorant of basic paleontology, now you're just pounding more nails into the coffin of your credibility by childishly misstating the foundations of evolutionary theory.

Plus you're showing yourself ignorant of the fact that the majority of American evolutionists are Christians -- who would be highly unlikely to adopt the premise that "God doesn't exist".

Someday when you're feeling more rational, a revelation may come to you too!

Contradiction in terms. Is there no end to your nonsense?

Evolutionists insist on using their finite yardstick of questionable "knowledge" to explain through theories how humans "evolved".

...using the same methods which successfully developed the computer you're using right now. Scientific knowledge may be "finite" (so's yours, son), but it *works*.

Never mind that these "theories" are evolving all the time and contradict eachother.

The details of the theory adjusts to the evidence -- that is, it becomes more and more accurate all the time. But contrary to your implication, the foundations of evolutionary science are unchanged from Darwin's statement of them in 1859. And please support your assertion that the theory of evolution contradicts itself. Be specific, and show your work.

That doesn't phase you at all.

Why should it phase me that evolutionary science gets more accurate all the time, and that you, with your track record, make unsupported accusations about it being allegedly contradictory?

It amuses me since my blinders are off and evolution is not my "religion" and I have no "faith" in it as you do.

It's not my religion either, and it does not require "faith" to realize the truth of evolution, it requires knowledge, understanding, and a familiarity with the evidence -- things you obviously lack.

It takes more "faith" to believe in evolution than creation

It takes no faith at all.

since when evidence is objectively examined it supports creation.

Well then feel free to present your case, don't just sit there beating your chest.

67 posted on 07/03/2004 3:09:19 AM PDT by Ichneumon ("...she might as well have been a space alien." - Bill Clinton, on Hillary, "My Life", p. 182)
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To: sawmill trash
[Humans and apes share a common ancestor.]
Show me the proof of this statement.

Here you go:

Are there mutations that apes have that humans don't have?

Yes there are, because after the (pick an ape species) lineage and the human lineage(s) split and went their separate ways, the apes would continue to accumulate mutations which the human wouldn't have, and vice versa.

What's interesting is that the number and type of mutations which ape species have is consistent with what one would expect if a) we did share a common ancestor with them, and b) the time of the split was around the time indicated by the fossil record.

What's even more to the point though, is the number and type of mutations that we *share*. Those are extremely hard, if not impossible, to explain via "separate creation" scenarios, but very perfectly explained by common descent.

By your reasoning this would argue for uncommon decent.

Then I may not have explained my reasoning well enough. No, it would not.

By my reasoning, the similarities that man and apes have genetically would cause me to think that similar mutations would affect both groups. A creature with very different genetics would be affected by the same mutating function in a different way.

The problem with that idea is that the various "mutating functions" have been studied at great length, and they don't act the way you suggest they might.

We can find some mutations that we share, which would go to our genetic similarities, and some mutations we don't share, which would go to our genetic differences.

The degree to which different species share the same mutation is far, far greater (and of a kind) than could possibly be explained by "similarly susceptible to mutations".

A plague that sweeps the globe like the Bubonic would possibly hammer the ape population in the same way as it hammered the human population, precisely because of our shared genetic designs.

Let's take that example as a case study of what I said above.

Background: Retroviruses reproduce by entering a cell of a host (like, say, a human), then embedding their own viral DNA into the cell's own DNA, which has the effect of adding a "recipe" for manufacturing more viruses to the cell's "instruction book". The cell then follows those instructions because it has no reason (or way) to "mistrust" the DNA instructions it contains. So the virus has converted the cell into a virus factory, and the new viruses leave the cell, and go find more cells to infect, etc.

However, every once in a while a virus's invasion plans don't function exactly as they should, and the virus's DNA (or portions of it) gets embedded into the cell's DNA in a "broken" manner. It's stuck into there, becoming part of the cell's DNA, but it's unable to produce new viruses. So there it remains, causing no harm. If this happens in a regular body cell, it just remains there for life as a "fossil" of the past infection and goes to the grave with the individual it's stuck in. All of us almost certainly contain countless such relics of the past viral infections we've fought off.

However... By chance this sometimes happens to a special cell in the body, a gametocyte cell that's one of the ones responsible for making sperm in males and egg cells in females, and if so subsequent sperm/eggs produced by that cell will contain copies of the "fossil" virus, since now it's just a portion of the entire DNA package of the cell. And once in a blue moon such a sperm or egg is lucky enough to be one of the few which participate in fertilization and are used to produce a child -- who will now inherit copies of the "fossilized" viral DNA in every cell of his/her body, since all are copied from the DNA of the original modified sperm/egg.

So now the "fossilized" viral DNA sequence will be passed on to *their* children, and their children's children, and so on. Through a process called neutral genetic drift, given enough time (it happens faster in smaller populations than large) the "fossil" viral DNA will either be flushed out of the population eventually, *or* by luck of the draw end up in every member of the population X generations down the road. It all depends on a roll of the genetic dice.

Due to the hurdles, "fossil" retroviral DNA strings (known by the technical name of "endogenous retroviruses") don't end up ubiquitous in a species very often, but it provably *does* happen. In fact, the Human DNA project has identified literally *thousands* of such fossilized "relics" of long-ago ancestral infections in the human DNA.

And several features of these DNA relics can be used to demonstrate common descent, including their *location*. The reason is that retroviruses aren't picky about where their DNA gets inserted into the host DNA. Even in an infection in a *single* individual, each infected cell has the retroviral DNA inserted into different locations than any other cell. Because the host DNA is so enormous (billions of basepairs in humans, for example), the odds of any retroviral insertion event matching the insertion location of any other insertion event are astronomically low. The only plausible mechanism by which two individuals could have retroviral DNA inserted into exactly the same location in their respective DNAs is if they inherited copies of that DNA from the same source -- a common ancestor.

Thus, shared endogenous retroviruses between, say, ape and man is almost irrefutable evidence that they descended from a common ancestor. *Unless* you want to suggest that they were created separately, and then a virus they were both susceptible to infected both a man and an ape in EXACTLY the same location in their DNAs (the odds of such a match by luck are literally on the order of 1,000,000,000,000,000,000 to 1...), *and* that the infections both happened in their gametocyte cells (combined odds on the order of 1,000,000 to 1) *and* that the one particular affected gametocyte is the one which produces the egg or sperm which is destined to produce an offspring (*HUGE* odds against), and *then* the resulting modified genome of the offspring becomes "fixed" in each respective population (1 out of population_size^squared)...

Then repeat that for *each* shared endogenous retrovirus (there are many) you'd like to claim was acquired independently and *not* from a shared ancestor...

Finally, you'd have to explain why, for say species A, B, and C, the pattern of shared same-location retroviruses is always *nested*, never *overlapped*. For example, all three will share some retroviruses, then A and B will both share several more, but if so then B *never* shares one with C that A doesn't also have (or at least remnants of).

In your "shared infection due to genetic similarities" suggestion, even leaving aside the near statistical impossibility of the infections leaving genetic "scars" in *exactly* the same locations in independent infections, one would expect to find cases of three species X, Y, and Z, where the degree of similarity was such that Y was "between" X and Z on some similarity scale, causing the same disease to befall X and Y but not Z, and another disease to affect Y and Z but not X. And yet, we don't find this in genetic markers. The markers are found in nested sequence, which is precisely what we would expect to see in cases of inheritance from common ancestry.

Here, for example, is an ancestry tree showing the pattern of shared same-location endogenous retroviruses of type HERV-K among primates:

This is just a partial list for illustration purposes -- there are many more.

Each labeled arrow on the chart shows an ERV shared in common by all the branches to the right, and *not* the branches that are "left-and-down". This is the pattern that common descent would make. And common descent is the *only* plausible explanation for it. Furthermore, similar findings tie together larger mammal groups into successively larger "superfamilies" of creatures all descended from a common ancestor.

Any presumption of independent acquisition is literally astronomically unlikely. And "God chose to put broken relics of viral infections that never actually happened into our DNA and line them up only in patterns that would provide incredibly strong evidence of common descent which hadn't actually happened" just strains credulity (not to mention would raise troubling questions about God's motives for such a misleading act).

Once again, the evidence for common descent -- as opposed to any other conceivable alternative explanation -- is clear and overwhelming.

Wait, want more? Endogenous retroviruses are just *one* type of genetic "tag" that makes perfect sense evolutionary and *no* sense under any other scenario. In addition to ERV's, there are also similar arguments for the patterns across species of Protein functional redundancies, DNA coding redundancies, shared Processed pseudogenes, shared Transposons (including *several* independent varieties, such as SINEs and LINEs), shared redundant pseudogenes, etc. etc. Here, for example, is a small map of shared SINE events among various mammal groups:

Like ERV's, any scenario which suggests that these shared DNA features were acquired separately strains the laws of probability beyond the breaking point, but they make perfect sense from an evolutionary common-descent scenario. In the above data, it is clear that the only logical conclusion is that, for example, the cetaceans, hippos, and ruminants shared a common ancestor, in which SINE events B and C entered its DNA and then was passed on to its descendants, yet this occurred after the point in time where an earlier common ancestor had given rise both to that species, and to the lineage which later became pigs.

And this pattern (giving the *same* results) is repeated over and over and over again when various kinds of molecular evidence from DNA is examined in detail.

The molecular evidence for evolution and common descent is overwhelming. The only alternative is for creationists to deny the obvious and say, "well maybe God decided to set up all DNA in *only* ways that were consistent with an evolutionary result even though He'd have a lot more options open to him, even including parts which by every measure are useless and exactly mimic copy errors, ancient infections, stutters, and other garbage inherited from nonexistent shared ancestors"...


68 posted on 07/03/2004 3:12:51 AM PDT by Ichneumon ("...she might as well have been a space alien." - Bill Clinton, on Hillary, "My Life", p. 182)
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To: Ichneumon

[Thunderous applause!]


69 posted on 07/03/2004 4:18:45 AM PDT by PatrickHenry (Felix, qui potuit rerum cognoscere causas.)
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To: Modernman

"Let the Games BEGIN!"


70 posted on 07/03/2004 4:35:05 AM PDT by Elsie (There is nothing you can't achieve if you are willing to give other people the credit...)
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To: sawmill trash
..why didn't the apes evolve..

They DID!

They got's thumbs on their FEET!
71 posted on 07/03/2004 4:39:01 AM PDT by Elsie (There is nothing you can't achieve if you are willing to give other people the credit...)
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To: general_re
They've resorted to lifting from one another..

Something We never do!

--Generic Evo Boy

72 posted on 07/03/2004 4:40:50 AM PDT by Elsie (There is nothing you can't achieve if you are willing to give other people the credit...)
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To: Ichneumon

"Yes there are, because after the (pick an ape species) lineage and the human lineage(s) split and went their separate ways, the apes would continue to accumulate mutations which the human wouldn't have, and vice versa."


Where is your evidence that this actually happened? Where are your bones, fossils, and for that matter the DNA? What year?

There should be heaps, mountains of bones. Maybe while they are uncovering those WMD's over in that cradle of civilization they will find these bones.

Actually, there should be no specific species of any kind if what you claim to be actually happened.


73 posted on 07/03/2004 4:42:41 AM PDT by Just mythoughts
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To: Elsie

Wait!!

I could be WRONG!!


Perhaps us HUMANS de-volved them feet thumbs.

"Professor; could THAT be the story???"

74 posted on 07/03/2004 4:47:55 AM PDT by Elsie (There is nothing you can't achieve if you are willing to give other people the credit...)
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To: dangus
The feather was a quandry for evolutionary biologists, since they are too complex to evolve with a short-term mutation, and primitive feathers are useless for flight. Then it was found that ancient bird-reptiles were warm-blooded and had "pin" feathers only. Eureka! Feathers were evolved first for body heat conservation. Only after bird-reptiles took to flight did nature find that certain shaped feathers functionned as micropropellers.

Stinky ol' pin feathers gettin' wet sure smell bad, but when you've got warm blood, who cares....


[We'll find these warm-blooded UN-FEATHERED fossils that died out in great numbers, because they could NOT keep warm enough yet, soon.

75 posted on 07/03/2004 4:53:11 AM PDT by Elsie (There is nothing you can't achieve if you are willing to give other people the credit...)
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To: Dimensio

Yes, as a matter of fact I guess I am that stupid ...

How is my above declaration "ducking" anything.

Since you are so bright (and I admittedly am not) which came first, the chicken or the egg ?


76 posted on 07/03/2004 6:00:46 AM PDT by sawmill trash (NADER !!! NADER !!! NADER !!! NADER !!! NADER !!! NADER !!! NADER !!! NADER !!!)
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To: sawmill trash
... which came first, the chicken or the egg ?

The chicken definitely came first but the egg was grateful just to get laid at all.

77 posted on 07/03/2004 6:28:09 AM PDT by VadeRetro
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To: Michael_Michaelangelo
Meanwhile, Webb's original observations have also been questioned by French and Indian astronomers who have been unable to see any change in alpha in their survey of quasars (Physical Review Letters, vol 92, p 121302).

This is what I like about Science versus Magic.
Theories and observations can be - and are - challenged. The questioned results must be verified by others. Remember “cold fusion”? No one else could duplicate the experiment so it was tossed.
There is no way to challenge magical theories about the universe.
78 posted on 07/03/2004 6:44:06 AM PDT by R. Scott (Humanity i love you because when you're hard up you pawn your Intelligence to buy a drink.)
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To: nmh
It was probably the skull of a child!

It is incredibly easy to tell a child’s skull from an adult’s.
79 posted on 07/03/2004 6:45:54 AM PDT by R. Scott (Humanity i love you because when you're hard up you pawn your Intelligence to buy a drink.)
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To: dangus
Well, that just goes to show how ignorant you are then, doesn't it? Darwin quickly scrapped the term "natural selection" and "survival of the fittest." In his second book …

It seems that most of the hard core creationists gain all of their knowledge of evolutionary science from other’s interpretation of the first book.
80 posted on 07/03/2004 6:54:22 AM PDT by R. Scott (Humanity i love you because when you're hard up you pawn your Intelligence to buy a drink.)
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