Posted on 06/22/2004 12:10:37 PM PDT by Alouette
If the non-Jewish public is even vaguely aware of the Chabad-Lubavitch movement, it's probably because its annual telethon draws celebrities including Adam Sandler, Michael Douglas, James Caan, Whoopi Goldberg and Anthony Hopkins.
But within the Jewish world, this small branch of Judaism is generating outsized levels of interest — and concern.
On the one hand, Chabad — with its rigorous observance of Jewish law and rabbis in long beards and wide-brimmed black hats — has become an island of growth, innovation and success at a time of aging synagogue memberships and stagnant population elsewhere among American Jews.
(Excerpt) Read more at latimes.com ...
And no, I do not think that is reprentative of all or even the majority of Lubavitchers at all. However, it gives the wrong impression.
Not to mention at the Israeli Independence Festival up in Encino this year, there was a small plane towing a banner with Rebbe Schneerson's pic on it with 'moshiach' written on it.
If you don't want people to think you are worshipping a rebbe, then don't do things publicly to make people think you are.
That seems a reasonable approach if the messianist "movement" is indeed waning rather than waxing. This is the kind of thing where you aren't likely to change people's minds. Better to let the passage of time take care of the problem.
This sounds ironically like the predictions made about the survival of Chassidism and Orthodoxy after WWII. Yeah, they're over, their influence is waning, soon there won't be any Chassidic Jews alive, anachronistic relics of a bygone age. Chabad proved them all wrong with their dedicated, idealistic approach, and I suspect that in the end the Messianists in Chabad will have the last laugh. As most Jews will admit in private, who cares who's right, just let Moshiach come already!
Furthermore, let's compare the kookiness of the Messianists to the Messianic kookiness of Judaism itself. A king will arise from the house of David. He will fight the battles of G-d and be victorious, gather the exiles, rebuild the Holy Temple on the site of the Al-aqsa mosque, and re-institute the Temple services including animal sacrifices. This is no Chabad invention, it's an integral part of Judaism and part of the 13 principals of faith codified by Maimonides. Those who are put off by the Messianism of Chabad need to check their Jewish sources and find whether it is Chabad that puts them off or something that is endemic to Judaism itself.
The problem is not messianism per se. The problem is with those who persist in calling Schneerson the messiah after his death. Jewish sources are pretty clearly opposed to the notion of a dead messiah.
Somewhere, there is another righteous man with all the qualifications of the Messiah. Right now we just don't know who he is, he himself may not even know. When G-D thinks the world is ready, the Messiah will be revealed to us.
Many Jews sang this song, even as they walked into the gas chambers of Auschwitz:
"I believe, with a perfect faith, in the coming of the Messiah. And even though he may delay, nevertheless I shall await his arrival, for he may come at any time."
Can you quote me which ones?
Can you quote me which ones?
You mentioned Maimonides in your earlier post. Here is what the Rambam had to say on this subject:
If a king arises from the House of David who meditates on the Torah, occupies himself with the commandments as did his ancestor King David, observes the commandments of the Written and Oral Law, prevails upon all Israel to walk in the way of the Torah and to follow its direction, and fights the wars of God, it may be assumed that he is the Messiah.
If he does these things and is fully successful, rebuilds the Third Temple on its location, and gathers the exiled Jews, he is beyond doubt the Messiah. But if he is not fully successful, or if he is killed, he is not the Messiah. (Mishnah Torah Kings 11:4)
If a king arises from the House of David who meditates on the Torah, occupies himself with the commandments as did his ancestor King David, observes the commandments of the Written and Oral Law, prevails upon all Israel to walk in the way of the Torah and to follow its direction, and fights the wars of God, it may be assumed that he is the Messiah.
If he does these things and is fully successful, rebuilds the Third Temple on its location, and gathers the exiled Jews, he is beyond doubt the Messiah. But if he is not fully successful, or if he is killed, he is not the Messiah. (Mishnah Torah Kings 11:4)
This is correct. This is why the majority of believing Jews do not believe that the Lubavitcher Rebbe OB"M was the promised Messiah, even though he may have possessed all the proper qualifications.
His passing, to our great sorrow, proved that he was not chosen to be the Messiah.
Therefore, that must be some one else, at this time, who is chosen by G-d as a worthy successor/
It is even possible that the Messiah might be a Ger Tedek who has converted to Judaism, since the Bible states only that the Messiah must be a direct descendant of the House of David, if whom some say might have been captured during various wars and could therefore be a muslim or a Christian.
The only way we can be certain is if the Messiah performs the miracles predicted in the BIBLE
The Rebbe was not "killed," so this particular statement of Maimonides is not relevant to the situation at hand.
In any event, I would like to wrap up this conversation with one point. Many Chabadniks continue to believe that the Rebbe is the Messiah, and they have sources to back them up. This isn't the religion board so I will lay off of the proofs and counterproofs as it gets rather nitpicky. Bottom line, this is their sincerely held belief, that has deep roots in Chassidic theology. Just to disabuse anyone of the notion that it is an ephemeral phenomenon that is dissipating. Chassidim have always believed in their Rebbe as Messiah. Those who claim otherwise are just not very well versed in Chassidic philosophy, particularly the talks of the Rebbe.
I'd recently heard that Angelina was raised Catholic.
Are you a Jew? Are you a Chasid? Perhaps you'd like to cite your Jewish sources which allow for the concept of a dead messiah.
Chassidim have always believed in their Rebbe as Messiah.
Please explain. Are you referring to "a" messiah ("anointed" one) or "the" messiah?
Those who claim otherwise are just not very well versed in Chassidic philosophy, particularly the talks of the Rebbe.
If Chasidic philosophy contradicts the written and oral Torah on this point, so much the worse for Chasidic philosophy.
"In light of disturbing developments which have recently arisen in the Jewish community, the Rabbinical Council of America in convention assembled declares that there is not and has never been a place in Judaism for the belief that Moshiach ben David will begin his Messianic mission only to experience death, burial, and resurrection before completing it." (Rabbinical Council of America, June 12, 1996)
That was very nice to mention.
I did not know Voight was Jewish...he ain't much but make a good looking woman/child...that he can.
When I kept an office on 47th back in the 80s, lots of folks had the Rebbe's pic on the wall. He lived to be quite old did he not?
There was also talk about the red calf frequently, I've forgotten what all that fuss was about.
Likewise, there was some friction in Brooklyn between the Lubavitch and Samteer (sic) as I recall.
Being a goy, the Hassidic weren't exactly "down" with me but we did business well enough. My partners were bohemian secular Israelis....they were snottier to them than to me actually.
One of those Israelis joined an uber Orthodox clan up in Rockland county at Kiryat Joel and left his old family to start a new baby making factory with the Rabbi's 19 year old daughter, he was 40 then. I as a Goy was forbidden from his home. I found all this rather odd since he was once a world class adventurer and whore mongerer. I hear he now has about 6 kids in 7 years and is working on a new Orthodox radio/tv station in Jerusalem now...all part of this sect.
They remind me of the old Jesus Freak communes but the chicks wear wigs and the guys have longer sideburns.
This is the 10th anniversar of his death. There was a large to do in Crown Heights. No official called him the messiah.
I do know people who pray to him by putting wishes on slips of paper and putting them into his grave area. This bothers me a great deal. They also I think do believe he is Moschiach. One time one woman hinted as much.
What I love about most Chabadniks is that they are so in love with Judaism and feel so close to G-d. Many seem so full of joy. They certainly have inspired and taught me so much more than I have learned from the snobby liberal synagogues. There is so much less judgement at Chabad.
That is a Satmar "compound."
Whoops, no offense, I thought they were more way out there than that.
Aren't Satmar and Lubavitch the two main Hassidic branches?
(it's been a while since NYC...88 to be exact)
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