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Soldier's Family Set in Motion Chain of Events on Disclosure [Hackworth involved in CBS photos]
NY Times ^ | 5/8/04 | James Dao and Eric Lichtblau

Posted on 05/07/2004 11:02:41 PM PDT by saquin

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To: saquin
If the truth were really known, I would bet money that someone with a bird on his shoulder or lettuce on his cap is ultimately responsible. However, I am equally certain that the powers that be, will see to it that it will go no higher than some young, first-year lieutenant and then, only if they can't figure out a way to confine it to the non-coms.

Although it has been quite a few years since I was in the military, I can't imagine it changing so much that such actions would be initiated by anyone below command level. Anyone who shows any signs of individual thought won't make it past boot camp. Their entire training is aimed at excising individual thought and enforcing obedience to orders and they do that job very well. Oh, there may be an occasional soldier who gets through the system, with his individuality still intact, but they are few and far between. The chances that so many would end up in the same place, at the same time is far greater than that of you winning the lottery on your first attempt. There is no doubt in my mind that those soldiers were following orders. I just don't know how far up the ladder it goes.

I don't think that Rumsfeld knew about it or would have condoned it. But I would bet that ultimate responsibility goes high enough up the ladder that when the secret part of the investigation is over and Rumsfeld reads that report, he will recognize the name(s) of the man (or men) who was responsible. That person will probably be quietly forced to retire, but the public will never hear about it and that's all that will happen. That's the way it has always been done. Even when the politicos have no knowledge of the wrongdoing, they want to keep the responsibility as far from themselves as possible, so the scapegoat is almost always a non-com.

In my opinion, Rumsfeld is the only person in the administration, including Dubya, with any real integrity. It would be a shame if Dubya were to fire him, though I have no doubt that he would, if he thought that it would improve his chances of re-election. Even if Rumsfeld were to be fired, the command officer who was ultimately responsible, will probably never be known to the public.

 

741 posted on 05/08/2004 1:58:34 PM PDT by Action-America (Best President: Reagan * Worst President: Klinton * Worst GOP President: Dubya)
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To: CWOJackson
Hack is a bitter POS.

Hack wants his buddy Bubba back as CIC. Pardon me while I puke.

742 posted on 05/08/2004 2:03:18 PM PDT by ReleaseTheHounds
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To: saquin
Great -- now 60 Minutes is going to turn out the hero in this case. Next we'll see a film version about the media's heroism.
743 posted on 05/08/2004 2:06:55 PM PDT by Ciexyz
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To: billbears
Please explain in some semblance of reason how presenting photos of these actual events 'endangers every one of those kids' or 'endangered this country'. I really don't understand how 'conservatives' condone this action and heap hatred upon the person delivering the photos. It's not like he committed the crime.

When you show pictures of all the bad things our military has done Iraq and you don't show any of the good things that our military has done in Iraq and you don't show the bad things that have been done to our military in Iraq, then you have not painted an objective picture of what our military is doing in Iraq.

The pictures of this war presented by the media are mostly bad. The work being done by our troops is mostly good.

Please explain in some semblance of reason how the above scenario DOES NOT endanger every one of our troops in Iraq, our objective in Iraq and our country.

744 posted on 05/08/2004 2:07:04 PM PDT by FreeReign
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To: subedei
Who cares about the revenge factor. Exactly what will be the difference between those we are fighting now and those who are supposedly going to take revenge? And am I supposed to weep for those who committed actual criminal acts?

If we care about the revenge that has played out against these Iraqi prisoners, then we should care about the revenge factor that may be played out against these six and more importantly all of our troops in Iraq.

The pictures were classified and should not have been leaked.

745 posted on 05/08/2004 2:10:18 PM PDT by FreeReign
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To: billbears
I really don't understand how 'conservatives' condone this action and heap hatred upon the person delivering the photos.

What's odd is that this is a 100% turnaround from the Manuel Miranda memogate incident, where Democrats wanted his head and FReepers were screaming to look into the content of the stolen memos. Now its Democrats wanting to look into the photos and FReepers calling for the head of the person that released the photos.
746 posted on 05/08/2004 2:12:48 PM PDT by lelio
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To: saquin
Now CBS' 60 Minutes II decided to put out the photos -- the people's right to know.

When can we expect CBS to publish the substance of the memos from Memogate?

Where was CBS when Juanita was making her allegations and telling her story?

Where was CBS when Chinagate was going down? When Johnnie Chung was looking to explain himself to the world? When Clintoids like the Riady boys are involved, CBS isn't interested? Guess not.
747 posted on 05/08/2004 2:18:21 PM PDT by ReleaseTheHounds
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To: ReleaseTheHounds
We must protect our troops and our childrens serving in the armed forces right now. There lives depend on us. What CBS and there Demon -rats and other terrorist funded groups like N.O.W. and the other anti-God forces are doing is fueling the fire more and more.

I say it's time to fight beside our troops and do what-ever-it takes to defense them from the attacks
from within......

Time to turn-off CBS and others that are against the U.S.A.
and the right to live. I am sick and tired seeing the 5th Column going un-checked. These are our childrens.

Our troops !!! I say FIGHT !!!!
748 posted on 05/08/2004 2:33:20 PM PDT by Orlando (www.mensnewsdaily.com, www.mensactivism.org (Support Fathers/Veteran Rights)
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To: billbears
Nobody condones it. The acts and those who perpetrated them are beneath contempt and everyone involved in it needs to be brought to justice. Those who released handed out the photos had an agenda and it wasn't anything to do with stopping these actions. They had already been stopped. The people involved were already indicted. A two foot tall investigation had already been put together. What purpose would be served by putting these pictures out in a time of war other than to demoralize our troops, sully our country, and attempt to destroy the progress in Iraq?
749 posted on 05/08/2004 2:33:30 PM PDT by McGavin999 (If Kerry can't deal with the "Republican Attack Machine" how is he going to deal with Al Qaeda)
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To: WestCoastGal
I agree, it still looks like a staged event to me, someone made this happen to either get us out of the ME or get Bush out of office. Either AQ or HC.

Other possibility mentioned above is a gay porn ring. I really hadn't thought of that angle.

750 posted on 05/08/2004 2:36:31 PM PDT by McGavin999 (If Kerry can't deal with the "Republican Attack Machine" how is he going to deal with Al Qaeda)
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To: billbears
It is really not that hard to understand. As we all know, these pictures are even more offensive to the Islamic world than they are to us. However, in the Islamic world, they don't form commitees and organizations to protest. Instead, they take out their anger on whomever happens to be near, like Americans in theater. In addition, the publication of these photos gives Al Qaeda a handy recruiting tool. And perhaps you have missed the story about the Imam who has said that all female soldiers captured by the militia may be used as sex slaves.

There was NO reason to publish these photos, since the Army already had investigations well underway and were revamping the system. People were already in custody. The report listed the offenses.

But that wasn't enough for CBS...they had to show the pictures. And in the process, violated the Geneva Convention and made certain that those prisoners in the pictures were humiliated not just before the prison guards but before the entire Arab world.

There are two wrongs here. The first is that of the guards and officers in the prison. They should get the maximum punishment available.

The second wrong is that of the media, who in the process of getting the pictures out in order to damage Bush, have indeed endangered the troops in Iraq, and in fact have given us a setback in the war on terror.

751 posted on 05/08/2004 2:38:28 PM PDT by Miss Marple
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To: Miss Marple; billbears
Well stated MM!
But he is a waste of time.
The lurkers will read and see your wisdom!
Thank you.

752 posted on 05/08/2004 2:44:05 PM PDT by onyx (WHO LEAKED TO CBS? Was it you Col. Hackworth?)
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To: BykrBayb; nopardons
Or is there a puppet master with his hand up... oh, nevermind. I almost exposed you to grown-up language again.

Abuse report sent, you have gone over the line.
753 posted on 05/08/2004 2:52:45 PM PDT by wasp69 (This tag line for sale because Dave Ramsey said so.)
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To: onyx
I was happy to respond. I fail to see why no one in the media, including Rush, Hannity, Medved, and the rest, are speaking about CBS's culpability in this.

If it is against the Geneva Convention to humiliate prisoners, why is CBS broadcasting the photos. They are, in my opinion, as guilty of war crimes as the guards at the prison.

754 posted on 05/08/2004 2:55:23 PM PDT by Miss Marple
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To: Miss Marple
why is CBS broadcasting the photos

"The public's right to know", don't you know? (Does that even have to be stated anymore?) Or, to translate it into everyday language - the mob's right and demand to be titillated 24/7!

755 posted on 05/08/2004 3:02:39 PM PDT by Revolting cat! ("In the end, nothing explains anything!")
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To: McGavin999
Those who released handed out the photos had an agenda and it wasn't anything to do with stopping these actions.

From reading the one of the soldier's father's account was that he was afraid his son and 6 other soliders were going to take the entire blame for this and so went to the media.
756 posted on 05/08/2004 3:03:26 PM PDT by lelio
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To: Miss Marple
I agree 100+%, but the Republicans in charge are PUN*S and won't do nothing to defense our troops.

What else is left ???

757 posted on 05/08/2004 3:05:36 PM PDT by Orlando (www.mensnewsdaily.com, www.mensactivism.org (Support Fathers/Veteran Rights)
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To: Miss Marple
If it is against the Geneva Convention to humiliate prisoners, why is CBS broadcasting the photos. They are, in my opinion, as guilty of war crimes as the guards at the prison.

What kind of twisted logic is that? You witness acts, take photos to publicize the inhuman treatment and you're the one being called the war criminal?
758 posted on 05/08/2004 3:10:25 PM PDT by lelio
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To: lelio
Well duh! They're the ones in the pictures. The rest of the investigation tracing this up the line in already in progress.

No, that excuse won't wash. Any REPUTABLE news agency would have checked that out before airing the photos.

759 posted on 05/08/2004 3:12:05 PM PDT by McGavin999 (If Kerry can't deal with the "Republican Attack Machine" how is he going to deal with Al Qaeda)
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To: Miss Marple
Instead, they take out their anger on whomever happens to be near, like Americans in theater.

Hmmmm, seems like they were doing that already. Or did you miss the reports on the hundreds of brave soldiers that have died since we 'won'? This changes nothing. Islamonuts hate the occupation force no matter what would have been done.

There was NO reason to publish these photos, since the Army already had investigations well underway and were revamping the system. People were already in custody. The report listed the offenses.

In our history, the stories that don't make the media and get to the public tend to be covered over

And in the process, violated the Geneva Convention and made certain that those prisoners in the pictures were humiliated not just before the prison guards but before the entire Arab world.

As if the soldiers didn't violate the Geneva convention in doing it in the first place. Have you even read part II or part III of section I? Practically everything it said not to do, these men and women did. Frankly, I think it's a good thing they're out in the open. Gives the citizens of the respective states a little taste of what these young people have been ingrained from the television media and entertainment divisions of our society.

Of course one couldn't expect anything further reaching to come out of this, say perhaps a responsibility factor on our society for breeding such 'free thinkers' but heck let's blame CBS for throwing it in our face shall we?

The second wrong is that of the media, who in the process of getting the pictures out in order to damage Bush, have indeed endangered the troops in Iraq, and in fact have given us a setback in the war on terror

And this is where you've lost me. Reporting what the youth of this society are doing over there does not threaten them in anyway. Islamics weren't going to love us under any circumstance. Or perhaps you missed the 'popular' US backed newspaper shutting down the other day when the entire staff walked off because of censorship. I want to know this is happening. And from many of the polls out there, the majority of the citizens of the respective states want to know it as well. Frankly, I've already sensed a change in some of the people I work with who served in Desert Storm I compared to older veterans I know

What amazes me is the double standard. Instead of getting upset, 'conservatives' cheer Rummy for standing up in the face of Congressional questioning. I know the era is long gone of expecting our Armed Forces to act a cut above the enemy. Even if they didn't follow the Geneva Convention, our Armed Forces expected themselves to do so. But on this thread, there is cheering when the Armed Forces do stoop to the level of the Islamics. That and lambasting a news organization for telling us they did so with photographs. I don't know what concerns me more. The fact that I see praise for those that would debase a man because they did it to us first or that we shouldn't be told what those who are 'spreading democracy' are doing to accomplish this job.

The rambling WOST continues..

760 posted on 05/08/2004 3:12:40 PM PDT by billbears (Deo Vindice.)
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