Official Free Republic "I Love Rummy Thread": Donald Rumsfeld Appreciation Thread, May 7, 2004

Free Republic ^ | Friday, May 7, 2004 | Momaw Nadon

[Momaw Nadon]

Thank God for Secretary of Defense Donald Rumsfeld and for his distinguished service to our country in this time of war.

We all want you to know that we enthusiastically support you and our troops!

[Jeff Head]

Very well said and amen.

See my post 115.

[lilylangtree]

Sent my email support note earlier. Rec'd nice reply. Hang in there Rummy!

[First_Salute]

"we have reason to suspect that the training of prison guards, the standards, command policies, and the general prison/detention climate is probably not optimum.  But in war you work with what you have.

Nowhere do I believe that the abusive prisoner treatment as recorded, photographed and videoed was ordered from above..."

The "command climate" actually is regarded as orders from the top.

That "climate" can be the source of trouble, usually following a shortage of personnel that [domino] affects a shortage of trarined personnel, without whom, wrenches are applied as hammers and vice versa, to some problem ... that sometimes makes the evening [liberal] news [media].

The large percentage of troops whom you credit for "having their act together," if I may use that expression, in part, do so on their own, usually as part of their upbringing or by faith and in working at lifting up themselves, striving to follow some morale code by which they endeavor to improve their life. Yet also they do, because they are operating in accordance with the orders of the command climate. Both our troops and the commanders who set the command climate, get the credit and are responsible.

That is one reason why Americans are such neat people, and it is also an example for the world, despite its criticisms of us, for which the people who do desire to be free, have admired us:

Both the man at the top and the man at the bottom, are in charge, in our citizen army, under our Constitution and the rule of law. We regard it is our moral, "civic duty."

Technically, all members of the war department offices under our Constitution (this is in our statutes, too) are to regard an order from a superior rank, to be as if it were a direct order from the President of the United States. Failure to obey a direct order, is treated the same as failure to obey a direct order of the President of the United States, and so you will be charged under the U.C.M.J.

Some too few people are aware of those facts in that last paragraph. They usually find out when they have been arrested by the provost or shore patrol, criminial intelligence divisions, or inspector somebody or other.

Because we are high on due process and the rights of all people, yet especially prisoners under our rule of law and in our charge, all commanders in the chain of command who have under them, even just one prisoner, are regarded as being directly responsible.

That has too often been a career-frightening proposition for some, who have therefore made themselves expert at bureaucratic maneuvering of the facts, and time, to set the stage for the release of information before the public eye and the Congress.

Now, we are expecting in this command climate and shortage of personnel --- that we have repeatedly been told is the responsiblity of the Army commanders --- to find that our people are conducting themselves in accordance with their orders, direct, indirect, climate, real or imagined.

In these prisoner treatment situations in the news, we expect our people, who are trained to obey orders, to be ethically higher or at least at the same level as what and who ... say ... the members of this forum?

The situational ethics, which we criticized during the Clinton Administration, we now find championed here, at Free Republic, page after page, where too many members express all manner of methods for exterminating all life in Iraq, butcher, maim, kill, and destroy, because, after all, we did see the photos of our dead comrades hanging from the bridge?

Conduct unbecoming an officer, is here, rampant, yet the command climate, the management, gives it a pass while summarily executing ("zotting") other much lesser crimes, such as expressing some criticism of President Bush. Regardless of the effect that the "criminal element" here, has for propaganda purposes in the hands of our enemies, though we are assured by the "criminal element," here, that our enemies would not read this forum ... except for the citations by the "criminal element" who are so proud of this forum's standing/rank on the Internet, which is in conflict of the "fact" that they just stated, that no enemy would be reading this forum and finding anything of military value. Yeah. Sure. The fascists wouldn't dream of studying the websites in opposition to them.

There is too much in the ethical climate, here, to justify, in the view of too many of this membership, what our people have done on the ground in personal, physical charge of some of the prisoners in Iraq. There are members of this forum who would easily be found in those pictures coming back from over there. There are members of this forum who would have crushed whomever came forward to report the wrongdoing.

Situational ethics in the command climate. It's a powderkeg when ignored.

It is the job of the top commanders; it is one of their greatest responsibilities.

For especially matters involving prisoners, they must get out from behind their desks and follow every detail from the top down and from the bottom up.

Those duties were not fulfilled, and purposefully, management like limited, one-page memos for their "ability" to keep the details on what goes wrong, from "ruining somebody's day."

I knew there would be more trouble, at the moment when General Myers said, in regard to Fallujah, that the solutions had developed from the ground up. His remarks did not fit the facts, that command decisions, as to who will be in charge, come from the top.

He was not only speaking about Fallujah. He was speaking in general, about the feedback that he and his colleagues were finding as the results of their command decisions, one of which has been, too few people in the theatre, in Iraq, and several shortages of material, that have led to the lower ranks doing with what they have.

There is a reason why Generals Marshall, Eisenhower, Hap Arnold, and Tooey Spaatz were such great commanders --- they were everywhere in person and in their thinking. That is why they were able to project our war effort overseas, because they had the imagination and were not too proud to roll up their sleeves and be involved in every last detail.

That work eventually killed Arnold, because of the stress, but he saved so many, many people, Americans, and others around the world, by working to make things work, both the Army Air Force and the command.

No detail was too small for Arnold, and he was advised repeatedly, that he should let others be in charge. There is always this debate of "leading from behind" versus "leading from the front," when practically, you must do both, by arranging your command and commanders such that, you get it done.

Working to make the command work, takes up an incredible amount of time, and many commanders shake their heads at the time lost, when they'd rather be, "in the trenches, solving the above problems," or they'd "rather be flying."

Yet, a command that is not working., and as an example, causes the problems now in the news, is directly the responsibility, more and more, as you go from the ground up ... of the "higher-ups" (which explains my usage of that, often, here).

That is why, as you know, I have repeatedly referred to the "Bush [still running 39% of the Clinton] Administration" style of management, as a source of trouble --- it stifles the flow, of what findings must flow, upstream to the top, so, that, what is going wrong, is dealt with as quickly as possible, and such repairs are performed well, instead of "just sweeping it under the rug."

As you know, bureaucrats and career ticket-punchers see their responsibilities in that chain, as keeping bad information from the top and from the press. On such occasions where "something leaked," then, there is much of a different and bad type of working on how command works, and usually there's some time lag while all stories are double&endash;checked by the special branch of "city hall," C.Y.A., for "Who struck John?" before "the authorities" are more forthcoming.

When the Army (or another branch) has much to be embarrassed about, it will first defend the Army, at the expense of especially the lower ranks, and that behavior by commanders, is in my view, deplorable.

Where the command has not worked as it should, and then problems have "leaked," politics, and I mean Army politics, can be found too often doing bad things. There has been too much unhappiness for too many soldiers over there, who have tried to bring to light, within the chain of command, things going wrong, but they have been dismissed (and their observations have been dismissed, here, too, under the rubric, "Hey, that's the Army." --- when that is no justification at all.)

I think that the President should never have apologized, but then, that is his nature. He is over-sensitive to being perceived as "meanspirited."

You have to watch out for that, because he will, at times, resort to some self-defense on that note, appeasing liberals, at the expense of others. He has done so in the past, at the expense of conservatives, and lately, at the expense of your Senate candidate, Pat Toomey.

Neither the President, nor General Myers, should speak of a "collective shame of our people," because they are establishing a command climate that everybody under their command shall adopt as the new amendments to the rules of engagement. People who you would not think should be affected by that, will be.

That is not good --- the Administration's insistance that everybody shall cut a gash on their forehead, be branded, as an act of world appeasement, is an extra burden that will cause the deaths of our people in combat, who will now hesitate when they must not; they will wait to act because the White House lawyering is evermore everywhere.

When General Kimmitt, on the other hand, said it all correctly; he apologized well; 'nuff said. Secretary Rumsfeld's apologies were also stated well. I hope he stays on the job.

The positive light that I'd like to see, is this: Everybody's bell has been rung up the chain, and much greater attention in the command, that should have been, shall be moved up to a high, top, priority.

Carry on; get it done.

 

[ColdSteelTalon]

The man has some Italian in him. he talks with his hands ! :)

[thatcher]

 As they did during the The Clinton administration; the democrat apologists have effectively colored the dialogue by drowning out the facts in a sea of spin, and they have even been able to change the dynamic of the facts to suit their own diabolical manifesto.

Military institutional policy.

Fact:

1. A young man who saw what was going on was able to report the problem immediately. The military took immediate action.
2. The idiots who were doing this were locked up, the crime was investigated and they are, as we speak on their way to trial.
3. These photos, that we have been seeing, are photos that were evidently stolen from the militaries evidence file to prosecute these cases.
4. There is no wrong doing on the part of the military here, only that of a few individual who were acting as individuals, not doing the military's work.
5. We can not hold other responsible for what another individual chooses to do; especially when the 'others' have done everything that they can do to stop the crime as soon as they knew about it. 
6. Blaming Rumsfeld, is like blaming a police chief for a crime happening in his precinct, after his officers have already picked up the criminal, have him sitting in jail awaiting trial.

When the Democrats fearless leader was caught red handed lying in a court of law, not only as the president of the United States of America, but as a lawyer, (for which he later lost his license to practice) he made the country go through a politicized impeachment process and still would not step down.  When clinton finally left office, he spent the last hours of that time pardoning criminals who had paid him off.

When we bring up example from the clinton administration to demonstrate the democrat's lack of sincerity; to show that they are care nothing about the principles involved; only about the opportunity to bring their hated enemy, ( the hated enemy is the one who does not think emotionally and opportunistically like them). they will say something like 'two wrongs do not make a right ~ nor do more wrongs make anything right. Ironically, President Clinton refused to admit that he committed crimes that he obviously committed (perjury and obstruction of justice).

Soldier's Family Set in Motion Chain of Events on Disclosure [Hackworth involved in CBS photos] NY Times 5/8/04 | James Dao and Eric Lichtblau

Iraqi Prisoner Details Abuse by Americans Washington Times ^ | 5/02/04 | AP

[snopercod]

Like it or not - justified or not - Americans can't think of themselves as "morally superior" after these shocking photos were revealed. (Let alone the ones which are rumored to be coming out soon depicting rape, sodomy and necrophelia.) Those guards performed those perversions in my name, damn them.

And if I'm embarassed, how do you think it makes our troops on the front lines feel? Will they still get a hero's welcome when they come back home? Or will their neighbors look at them and wonder if they were over there sodomizing young boy prisoners?

When I was in the Army, the type of men who gravitated to the military police were the bullies in high school - the ones who liked to beat up the smaller kids just for fun. The recent events give me no reason to change my bigotry on that. It's probably worse now that man-haters of the "fairer sex" are welcome (and thriving, apparently.)

I can't help but think back to WW II (no, I wasn't born yet), and the moral outrage that erupted when the truth of the Nazi concentration camps was revealed. "How could people do these things?", everyone said. Now Americans are doing them. No, we're not gassing people by the millions, but Drudge is teasing us with a video alegedly showing Americans beating a prisoner to near death.

It would do us Americans good to think on the Ominous Parallels we have here.

I really don't think the war effort will recover from this. We have lost our moral authority for war.

The above comments don't negate what I said previously about the media using this episode to destroy Bush. They are. But maybe this time it's justified. I would hate to see Rummy go, but dammit, somebody needs to be fired over this, and soon.

In the corporate world, the CEO and the Board are responsible for the actions of all their employees, legally speaking.

I don't know about you, but I would like to find whomever came up with the idea of taking naked photos of a pile of Iraqi prisoners. Then they should be given a fair trial and a speedy hanging.

[oldironsides]

Let us hope that Rumsfeld grabs a few of these reserve commanders by the b***s and replaces them with RA people. The reservists seem to have forgotten what they were taught if anything. The lapse in judgement by so many in one place is disgusting. No oversight and no pride. Every reserve unit should have a visit from headquarters and have a complete mission review. There is something seriously wrong with the training and readiness of some units. Long ago we knew they were promoting some real jerks to command positions within the reserves. They were political and promotions were given to men and women not prepared for the mission. Now we see the results. This is a wake up call to all units being led such people.

[antaresequity]

Can someone please point me at a transcript of Rumsfeld's testimony before the House Armed Services committee please....

I can't seem to find it.

[Right_in_Virginia]

Sent my email support note earlier. Rec'd nice reply. Hang in there Rummy!

Where did you send your email support note? I've been looking for a place to send one.

Thanks!

[humblegunner]

Can someone please point me at a transcript of Rumsfeld's testimony before the House Armed Services committee please....

Is this it?

And this is for the questions that don't have any answers
The midnight glancers and the topless dancers
The candid freaks, cars packed with speakers
The G's with the forties and the chicks with beepers
The Northern Lights and the Southern Comfort
And it don't even matter if the veins are punctured
All the crackheads, the critics, the cynics
And all my heros in the Methodone Clinic
All you bastards at the IRS
For the crooked cops and the cluttered desks
For the shots of jack and the caps of meth
Half pints of love and the fifths of stress
For the hookers all tricking out in Hollywood
And for my hoods of the world misunderstood
I said it's all good and it's all in fun
Now get in the pit and try to love someone!!!

[freekitty]

God Bless Rummy.

[antaresequity]

HOUSE ARMED SERVICES COMMITTEE HOLDS A HEARING ON
TREATMENT OF IRAQI PRISONERS

U.S. REPRESENTATIVE JAMES R. LANGEVIN (D-RI) : The credibility question, where do we go from here? How do we restore our credibility on human rights, Mr. Secretary? How do you advise the president on this issue of restoring our credibility on human rights when we come to criticize other nations?

RUMSFELD:

Well, when you've got 2.4 men and women in uniform -- active duty, Guard, Reserve, Selective Reserve -- they're doing a lot of wonderful things in the world. Some people did some perfectly terrible things. What happened after that? We announced it. It became public. We're having an open process. We're prosecuting the people who have done something wrong.

The world is seeing what a democracy does. The world is seeing how people who care about human rights behave.

This isn't a pattern or practice or a policy of the government as it was under Saddam Hussein. This is something totally different.

And how do we always get from one step to the next step? We live our lives as best we can, knowing we're imperfect, mistakes get made, people do bad things to people.

We see it in every state in the union, every year -- murders, rapes.

How do we restore our credibility? What we do is, we get up the next day and try to live our lives better, and we try to do a better job in government and public service. And over time truth wins out.

We have a free, open system. We've got wonderful people in this country. We're not an evil society. There's not something bad about America. America is not what's wrong with the world.

And the overwhelming majority of the people in the world know that.

I mean, why do people line up to get into this country, year after year after year? I read all this stuff -- "people hate us, people don't like us" -- the fact of the matter is, people line up to come into this country every year.

Because it's better here than other places, and because they respect the fact that we respect human beings.

And we'll get by this. I don't like it any more than you do.

Clip from transcript, House Armed Services Committee, May 7, 2004

[snopercod]

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1131972/posts

[Simcha7]

PRAYERS and BLESSINGS...

For Mr. Donald Rumsfeld, Your Family and The Entire Defense Dept; for our BRAVE TROOPS and their FAMILIES.

May The Living GOD of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob/ISRAEL BLESS and KEEP You in HIS LOVE, GRACE and SHALOM...HIS Perfect and Abiding PEACE!

THANK YOU FOR ALL YOU DO AND FOR ALL THAT YOU WILL CONTINUE TO DO FOR OUR GREAT NATION...WE LOVE YOU!

READ ~ JOSHUA 1:9!

"Have I not commanded You? Be Strong and Courageous. Do Not be terrified; Do Not be discouraged, for The LORD your GOD will be with you wherever you go."

Amen ~ and ~ Amen.

[libsrscum]

Let me add to this thread my heartfelt and total support for Secretary Rumsfeld.
There is no one better for the job.
I have lived some years, and he is the best one we have ever had.

[Reactionary]

What else can one say? Rumsfeld rules.

[gitmo]

Mr Rumsfeld led the country in a new form of warfare, and waged two of the most successful campaigns in history. Go Rummy!

[SerpentDove]

SIC 'EM, RUMMY!!!!

[lilylangtree]

Saw this email address on Thursday before the Admin Mod removed the complete request to send Rummy letters of support. This Harold Heilsnis is Public Affairs in the Office of Secretary of Defense. And he does reply back to the sender. I attest to this fact.

harold.heilsnis@osd.mil.

[joanie-f]

Mike, first let me say that, on matters of particular military knowledge, I will always defer to you. From our correspondences, I know the illustrious military background from which you come, and I respect your opinions on military matters and philosophy about which I have proportionately much less knowledge. My Dad served as a Navy aviation radioman first class from 1/44 through 1/46. I will always be extremely proud of his service, not to mention his incomparable character as a man. But that is the extent of my familial roots to the armed services.

The situational ethics, which we criticized during the Clinton Administration, we now find championed here, at Free Republic, page after page, where too many members express all manner of methods for exterminating all life in Iraq, butcher, maim, kill, and destroy, because, after all, we did see the photos of our dead comrades hanging from the bridge?

THIS is precisely what has troubled me the most about the Abu-Ghraib issue.

For more than two centuries, America has served as something of a moral beacon in this world. To be sure, we have our warts. The list is lengthy. But as regards standing and sacrificing for freedom and human rights – not only ours but those of strangers half a world away – no civilization has ever done so more readily, more frequently, or more selflessly.

Thus the abject horror on the part of most real Americans regarding the photos that recently have been plastered all over our newspapers and television screens. Real Americans don’t do such things. We watch in horror as our own are sadistically burned, butchered, hung on a bridge over the Euphrates, and offered as sacrifice to the great Allah. Yet our natures are to catch and punish the perpetrators – not to respond in kind. That is because Americans value life and liberty more than power and vicious, brainless ideology.

Most Americans, that is. Exempt from that group are those who planned and executed the Abu-Ghraib abuses. Also exempt from that group is that much larger subset -- those who simply see the abuses as a tool with which to amass political power.

Trouble is neither one of these groups – the one that has just come to prominent national attention (the prison guards), and the one that constantly steals the attention of the nation (the political power grabbers) – represents real America. And yet real America is suffering under their toxic influence. The morale of the other courageous and dedicated 130,000 troops who would not have taken part in such abuses has been dealt a serious blow by the relative few at Abu-Ghraib.

The rest of us here at home have been sickened by the photos that strike hard at our unique national conscience. But many of us are even more sickened by additional repercussive considerations:

What you, Mike, describe as our President’s over-sensitivity to being perceived as meanspirited. The leftist power mongers in America, and those who claim to monitor world opinion, want to spill (and spill … and spill … ) figurative American blood, as usual. They want us to beat ourselves on the back with chains in front of the rest of the world until our humiliation meets their perverse requirements. They are the same wailers who are forever demanding reparations for slavery, or for the inmates of the Japanese internment camps. Just two of countless American warts for which we will never be forgiven by the wailers, and about which we will forever be crucified anew.

I have always admired Don Rumsfeld for his in-your-face attitude when dealing face-to-face with leftist apologists, especially those in the media and congress, whose questions and assertions are often ludicrous and agenda-driven. That attitude was absent yesterday, and his new, more ameliorative attitude has been applauded by many pundits as a step toward more ‘civility’ on Rumsfeld’s part. Although I applaud his continued character, I saw an outwardly weaker, more appeasement-oriented Rumsfeld yesterday. An admission of wrongdoing on the part of a miniscule number of American soldiers, and an assurance that such behavior will not be tolerated, should be enough. Presidential and cabinet apologies, groveling, and compensation for the victims are not only absurd … they are politically and militarily dangerous.

The Administration's insistence that everybody shall cut a gash on their forehead, be branded, as an act of world appeasement, is an extra burden that will cause the deaths of our people in combat, who will now hesitate when they must not … First Salute

If this self-flagelation continues, it will be the most devastating result of Abu_Ghraib. The Iraqis who were unnecessarily ‘humiliated’ will get over their ordeal. But the morale and resolve of America’s troops will be affected indefinitely. In the same way that a small handful of overzealous police who are convicted of police brutality will affect thereafter the morale and effectiveness of the entire force. New regulations will be put in place that severely hand-cuff the protectors, with the result being that they lose a portion of their determination, self-respect (as regards their job) and resolve … and those they are charged to apprehend will become even more emboldened.

When I was in the Army, the type of men who gravitated to the military police were the bullies in high school - the ones who liked to beat up the smaller kids just for fun. The recent events give me no reason to change my bigotry on that. It's probably worse now that man-haters of the "fairer sex" are welcome (and thriving, apparently.) … snopercod

Absolutely. Simply more evidence that these people do not represent the American military in general, or the people of this country. Despite my feelings (bordering on hatred) about the Iraqi prisoners and their probable crimes, I still cannot bring myself to look at the photos of Lynndie England. The one (I saw briefly only once, before having to look away) of her holding the naked Iraqi man by leash strangely immediately made me think that she would serve as an appropriate poster girl for many of those in the militant American feminist movement. Your comment man-haters of the ‘fair sex’ reminded me of that strange personal reaction.

I believe the bottom line here is that the administration’s and the military’s first priority must be to continue to prosecute the war as effectively as possible. Completing their investigation, and meting out the appropriate punishment, although important, is decidedly secondary. We need to get our priorities back in order. And turning a deaf ear to the wailing left and considerations of ‘world opinion’ is essential for success. Seeking to appease our own leftist media and politicians will only result in humiliation and failure on all fronts.

I would hate to see Rummy go, but dammit, somebody needs to be fired over this, and soon … snopercod

I rarely, if ever, disagree with you, John, but I do here. Rumsfeld has been a superb Defense Secretary, and to hold him accountable for the incivility of a handful of those under his charge – especially because we would be doing so in large part to silence the cries from the democrat Pelosi/Kennedy/Kerry/Murtha ilk, and turncoat republicans like McCain – would be knuckling under, yet again to their double-standard, agenda-driven self-righteousness. Rumsfeld has performed admirably (actually, that is a vast understatement). To ask him to fall on his sword now, in order to silence the screamers, will only serve to empower them to scream even louder at future, lesser conservative shortcomings/offenses.

By holding ourselves to a higher moral standard before the rest of the world, we are attempting to stand, and sacrifice, for freedom and liberty. But the majority of the screamers within our own borders defended Bill Clinton against charges infinitely more serious, and infinitely more damaging to our national security and sovereignty. By continuously holding ourselves to a higher moral standard than those hypocrites who hold powerful political positions within our own borders, we are consistently allowing them to wrench more of the reins from us. There are times when sacrificing one of your own for the sake of a phony political peace is a detriment to the greater good. And this is most definitely one of them.

~ joanie