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Marines Want Their .45s Back
StrategyPage.com ^ | April 23, 2004

Posted on 04/23/2004 4:21:45 PM PDT by Cannoneer No. 4

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To: Cannoneer No. 4
And it weren't BROKE to begin with. Back to the adult dose!
61 posted on 04/23/2004 5:31:13 PM PDT by Joee
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Some MEU's still carry proven M1911 .45's
62 posted on 04/23/2004 5:32:33 PM PDT by Cannoneer No. 4 (I've lost turret power; I have my nods and my .50. Hooah. I will stay until relieved. White 2 out.)
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Comment #63 Removed by Moderator

To: NewRomeTacitus
I have nothing against the 9 mm, nor the Beretta M9 (Model 92). I just wonder what prompted the U S military establishment to scrap the Model of 1911A1 .45 ACP in favor of the Beretta. Some rumors say that it had to do with the U S keeping military bases in Italy. This sounds plausible; I also heard that we switched to the 9 mm in order to have NATO-compatible ammunition, but this sounds like BS since earlier we had persuaded NATO to adopt the 7.62 x 54 (.308 Win), then promptly switched to the 5.56 mm in the M 16 format and told Nato to go hell. It does seem like the Beretta decision was purely political; the other argument that doesn't hold is the one about how women in the military had trouble qualifying with the heavier recoil of the .45 ACP relative to the 9 mm. I don't buy that one either, since the double-stack magazined Beretta has a wider grip, making controllability with small hands more difficult.

The bigger issue is the one about the Beretta slides cracking just behind the locking wedge cutout; this one is more serious in my opinion and should prompt a little more discussion amongst the top brass. That said, I have not had any trouble with my Beretta Model 96 in .40 S and W, although I do not shoot the thing very often.

64 posted on 04/23/2004 5:34:53 PM PDT by 45Auto (Big holes are (almost) always better.)
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To: robertpaulsen
Double taps with hard ball should be placing the 2nd shot within 3" of your 1st shot at 6 - 10 yards. Check yr grip, check yr stance and do finger excercises to increase speed. Your can get this under control with practice.
65 posted on 04/23/2004 5:35:12 PM PDT by Khurkris (Ranger On...Rest with the Lord Ranger Tillman.)
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To: eastforker
The 44 Auto Mag:


66 posted on 04/23/2004 5:36:06 PM PDT by 45Auto (Big holes are (almost) always better.)
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To: Cannoneer No. 4
"“We went into Vietnam with a bad weapon, the M-16 rifle, which was responsible for killing thousands of our soldiers,” he wrote."

Hackworth needs a govenor on his mouth sometimes.

67 posted on 04/23/2004 5:37:30 PM PDT by Khurkris (Ranger On...Rest with the Lord Ranger Tillman.)
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To: R. Scott
Now a lot of cops are taught the Spray and Pray technique.

Yep. Many would be surprised as to how many cops can't shoot very well. It's actually a sad thing to witness at qual shoots.

68 posted on 04/23/2004 5:40:26 PM PDT by Jagdgewehr (55% COTTON 45% POLYESTER, MACHINE WASH COLD WITH LIKE COLORS)
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To: USMCBOMBGUY
Here's the deal (at least for me)...
I have SEEN, with me own little peepers, a man wearing body armor get hit in the upper torso by a .45ACP (turned out later it was a COR-BON "+P")
It flattened him. Bam, on the ground, stunned and groaning.
I have also seen on more than a few "demos" and live shooting vidios what happens to you when you take a 9mm in about the same spot. You stay standing and go "OOOOWWWWW!!!" real loud, then (a least in one vid I saw) unload on the bad guy.

I'll stay with my trusty suped up Norinco clone.
357 = 9mm no matter what you do with the case volume.
69 posted on 04/23/2004 5:42:50 PM PDT by cavtrooper21 (Knowledge is power, power corrupts... So study hard and be evil.)
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To: Cannoneer No. 4
Black Jack Pershing also used the Model of 1911 in 1916 in Mexico:

Pancho Villa's Raid on Columbus, New Mexico

In the early morning darkness of March 9, 1916, guerrillas of the Mexican Revolution under General Francisco "Pancho" Villa attacked the small New Mexico border town and military camp at Columbus -- the site of what is now Pancho Villa State Park.

As the sun rose on the morning of March 9, 1916, the center of Columbus, New Mexico was a smoking ruin. Word of Pancho Villa's attack on the town flashed by telegraph, making newspaper headlines throughout the nation. Camp Furlong, the Columbus military outpost, seethed with activity as fresh troops arrived by train and the U.S. Army prepared to pursue Villa into Mexico.

Pershing's Punitive Expedition Led by General "Black Jack" Pershing, who would later command the Allied forces of World War I, the Punitive Expedition forged south from Columbus on March 16, 1916. The search for Villa would ultimately lead American troops some 400 miles into Mexico, as far south as the city of Parral where, after a skirmish, they turned back to bases in northern Mexico. For 11 months, the 10,000 soldiers of Pershing's Punitive Expedition endured parching heat and bone-chilling cold as they ranged the wild deserts and mountains of the vast state of Chihuahua, tracking the Villista raiders.

The Punitive Expedition was the last true cavalry action mounted by the U.S. Army, and, ironically, was also the first U.S. military operation to employ mechanized vehicles. In what would prove to be a preparation for World War I, Pershing experimented in Mexico with the use of automobiles, trucks, and airplanes, [and the Model of 1911 which was to play an important role in the trenches of W W I] though fuel for those new-fangled machines often had to be transported on pack mules.

Pershing succeeded in dispersing the Mexican forces that had attacked Columbus, but the revolutionary chieftain, Pancho Villa, vanished into the Mexican backcountry and was never captured. In February, 1917, the Punitive Expedition returned to Columbus and Camp Furlong, where troops, toughened by the rigorous march through Chihuahua, boarded trains that would carry them to other conflicts. Many would see action in World War I.

Columbus and Camp Furlong Today The military post at Camp Furlong was closed in 1926, and the extensive cactus gardens of Pancho Villa State Park now cover its site. Several buildings dating from the time of Villa's raid still stand in Columbus, including the adobe Hoover Hotel, the restored Columbus railroad depot, and the old U.S. Customs Service building. The customs house, build in 1902, is now the Pancho Villa State Park visitor center, with exhibits describing the histories of Pancho Villa, the Columbus raid of 1916, and Pershing's Punitive Expedition.

70 posted on 04/23/2004 5:44:07 PM PDT by 45Auto (Big holes are (almost) always better.)
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Comment #71 Removed by Moderator

To: JackRyanCIA
Hey, is that there one of them long barrelled "Urban Varmit Guns"???
72 posted on 04/23/2004 5:45:48 PM PDT by cavtrooper21 (Knowledge is power, power corrupts... So study hard and be evil.)
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To: Cannoneer No. 4
If I were to standardize the military on a round, I'd go with the .357 Sig. Decent capacity, and about the best stopping power on a human target you can get.

However, I must also remember that hollow points are not allowed in the military. The .357mag/sig are best in that form by far, about the best you can get.

For FMJ, the 230gr .45 is still the king.
73 posted on 04/23/2004 5:47:46 PM PDT by Monty22
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To: MarkL
Easier to repair than a 1911?

Well, I suppose that fitting a barrel takes some expertise, but for the most part, even I can maintain my 1911s, stripping them down to the pins! And I had to swear to my favorite gunsmith that I would NEVER take the sideplate off my S&W revolvers, ever again!

Mark

Just so, and with a M1911A1, you need no tools other than components of the pistol to dissassemble the weapon to each of it's seperate components. The only commercially available weapon I can think of that approaches this level of user-friendliness is the Glock model 21 .45, intended from its conception to be extremely user-maintainable.

I'd have no probl;em with being issued either one, though the M1911 can be fitted with thinner grips for those with smaller hands. The forged steel frame versions of the M1911 get the nod for greater strength and probable longer longevity; the aluminum-framed *Commander* version would probably be an excellent compromise, and the lightweight Glock the lightest possible choice.

For a Marine contract, Glock would likely build the pistols with whatever features they'd want; I'd bet on the USMC requiring a manual safety, even on the Glock. Not a problem. And the availability of similar accessories for the M1911 is overwhelming; there are lots of possibilities there.

Leave the decision to me and they'd get .45 Combat Commanders.


74 posted on 04/23/2004 5:48:01 PM PDT by archy (The darkness will come. It will find you,and it will scare you like you've never been scared before.)
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Comment #75 Removed by Moderator

To: Cannoneer No. 4
I have a "1991 A1", comped...and a Para-Ord .45 with (I believe) 15 round double-stack.
76 posted on 04/23/2004 5:49:28 PM PDT by boris (The deadliest weapon of mass destruction in history is a Leftist with a word processor)
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To: JackRyanCIA
Thanks again, Jack. Won't bug you any more...
77 posted on 04/23/2004 5:54:12 PM PDT by Airborne Longhorn
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To: eastforker
44 Automag compared to Beretta M9


78 posted on 04/23/2004 5:54:38 PM PDT by 45Auto (Big holes are (almost) always better.)
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To: Tanstaafl
FYI -
Contract values include the total with all options. The contract may have ‘option’ lines for additional lots of pistols and accessories beyond the initial lot.

In this case, spare parts, magazines, maintenance support tools and gauges are a good bet. Possibly also an armorer training contract.

79 posted on 04/23/2004 5:54:43 PM PDT by archy (The darkness will come. It will find you,and it will scare you like you've never been scared before.)
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To: marktwain
The 10mm is an expert's pistol. Still, their are a considerable number of people who could use it well.

Hmmm, I've owned and shot various .40 and 9mm Glocks. Last night I shot a Glock 29, the sub-compact 10mm.

It was the first time I'd shot a 10mm of any stripe. I'm not overly fond of the baby Glocks, but I had no problems with this one. I cleared a rack of 6 plates at 15 yards, first time with no problems. (180gr full house loads)

I like the 1911 also, don't currently own one, but do have a S&W 625 in .45acp that is one of my favorite shooters.

80 posted on 04/23/2004 6:00:31 PM PDT by TC Rider (The United States Constitution © 1791. All Rights Reserved.)
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