Posted on 04/22/2004 10:49:24 AM PDT by moondoggie
How come the paperwork on Kerry's Bronze Star Award is signed by John Lehman, Sec. of the Navy????
In addition, the date Lehman (supposedly) signed it is not on the document.
Did Kerry not get the award when Chaffee was Secretary of the Navy? If not, why not?
Did Kerry get the award 15 years late?
Or is the paperwork a "sham" and somebody made a big booboo?
I'll post the document as soon as I find it again. Maybe somebody here has it bookmarked? And, if there's already been a thread on this that I missed....please direct me to the proper thread.
Thanks!
Indeed!
Bush at least did what he was supposed to do.....Kerry has been described as overeager and reckless in his actions by Zumwalt.
I would add the Bronze Star to the mix, especially since it appears that Zumwalt was the approving authority. Hyland, CINCPAC, didn't even get involved. Slight correction: Lehman signed the citation. I have no idea whether the medal certificate was replaced, resigned, etc.
Kerry's second 120 day tour of duty in Vietnam only marginally qualify him for these stars, and his first 90 day tour of duty is only marginally qualified for claiming these stars that most vet's truly earned by actually serving in these theaters the whole time.
Unfortunately, those are the rules. It just depends on what dates the various campaigns are delineated. For the record, Kerry spent 82 days in the combat zone while on the USS Gridley, which was on plane guard duty in the Gulf of Tonkin.
Why would he want another set? How vain could he be?
pinging me to read when I get home.
If you have anything special on this, please e-mail it to me.
I researched the letters and found that if you need replacement metals from the Navy, you had to fill out a form 180 and the SECNAV would have to sign it to replace to metals you threw, I mean the metals you lost. Kerry was gearing up for the 1884 Senate race and needed all his ducks in a row.
Could you provide a link to the record clarification?
If this is all it is, there is no sense looking into it.
But, others disagree with you on this...
There is a distinction between the medal citation and the certificate. The citation is on letterhead paper and gives a synopsis describing the action justifying the award, usually one page long, and signed by the approving authority. The certficate has some graphics and is suitable for framing. Usually, there are two or three sentences describing the action. It is also signed. Kerry released his purple heart certificates. He has not, to my knowledge, released his Silver and Bornze Star certificates, just the citations.
I took part in some of the earlier discussions on this thread and numerous others. I have printed out all the citations, certficates, officer evaluation forms, and other service related materials provided by Kerry. All of the names, dates, etc. check out in terms of their accuracy. They are authentic military documents.
I know more than I wanted to know about this poseur. You are correct, the release of his complete military records is a must. The Swift Boat vets led by John O'Neill have been calling for their release at every opportunity. The RNC is reluctant to get into that fight, at least overtly.
Thanks for the info. You confirmed what I thought about SECNAV having to sign the approval. I bet Kerry filled out a form 180. The timing for his first run at the Senate in 1984 fits in terms of Lehman approving replacement medals. There is obviously a paper trail that documents all of this. Unfortunately, they are in Kerry's military records, which he refuses to release.
The Zumwalt and Lehman Bronze star citations are identical, which makes sense since Zumwalt was the approving authority for the original award.
Were not these docs part of Kerry's private files? If so, why would he spend the time to fix up his own records that nobody but he sees (until running for POTUS of course)?
If he does that, he is more messed up than we know.
Okay....so...trying to follow this......there is nothing odd about the record being signed by Lehman?
I wonder why the Findlaw folks only have the later citation?
Anyway, this just means that Kerry, for some reason, requested more medals?
Obviously politically motivated of course. Did Chafee not have to sign the original citation, which is why we have Zumwalt on it, but not Chafee?
Kerry has been running for President ever since he was in college. Everything is calculated ala Clinton.
Yes it is odd, since Lehman was SECNAV (1981-87). Kerry received his awards in 1969, inculding the medals. There does not seem to be any reason for the SECVAV to sign either the Bronze or Silver Star citations as the approving authority. Zumwalt could do the former and ADM Hyland, CINCPAC, the latter.
I wonder why the Findlaw folks only have the later citation?
I have no idea what the Findlaw source was, but Kerry supplied the earlier ones. Both appear authentic.
Anyway, this just means that Kerry, for some reason, requested more medals?
That's my take on it. I have no other explanation. It makes sense if Kerry was telling the truth intially that he threw his medals away. Once he started running for the Senate, I guess he thought that having the medals would be a political asset. When he started displaying them in his office, he had to come up with a story that they were not his medals that were thrown away.
Obviously politically motivated of course. Did Chafee not have to sign the original citation, which is why we have Zumwalt on it, but not Chafee?
I don't think SECNAV's signature was needed on either award since the approval level was probably delegated lower down the chain of command. We were in the middle of the war so it would be a major log jam if these awards had to go to Washington before being conferred.
On a personal note, I escorted Mrs. Chafee during the change of command ceremony when John Warner took Chafee's place as SECNAV.
I have looked over the scans of the original documents, and as a former legal and administrative officer I see absolutely nothing out of place.
http://www.johnkerry.com/about/Bronze_Star.pdf
http://www.johnkerry.com/about/Silver_Star.pdf
I honestly believe that as he came to prominence, perhaps as he prepared for his senate candidacy, he had someone review his records. They noticed an ommision, and then asked for a correction/supplement to his record. Additionally, the titular awarding authority for the Bronze Star (and Silver Star) is the Secretary. It could very well be that Mr. Kerry never received the certificates signed by the sitting Secretary, and had asked that duplicate certificates be issued with the appropriate awarding signature. Again, this is something that happens rather regularly.
Was it a political calculation? The dates indicate that it probably was.
Was it a sham? Is there a conspiracy? From what I see; no.
Regardless. my point remains the same: this is a LOSING battle. There are MUCH MORE IMPORTANT issues. Disliking the man, and not trusting the man, is no reason to look for scandals where none exist. Attempts to discredit his military service, whether valid or not, at this point will have no affect.
How about focusing some of this energy in getting the word out about his very real and very well documented national security record? His actions, votes, and statements as a Senator are far more relevant to this election than anything he did, or did not do, back in 1970.
Alas, I feel my comments are falling on deaf ears.
We need facts not supposition. What ommission? What correction was needed?
Additionally, the titular awarding authority for the Bronze Star (and Silver Star) is the Secretary. It could very well be that Mr. Kerry never received the certificates signed by the sitting Secretary, and had asked that duplicate certificates be issued with the appropriate awarding signature. Again, this is something that happens rather regularly.
The President of the United States is the titular awarding authority. It is the first paragraph on all the citations. Who says that the Secretary of the Navy signs all Silver and Bronze Star citations? Or certificates? What happens regularly? The SECNAV signing award citations more than a decade later? I find your explanations wanting.
Attempts to discredit his military service, whether valid or not, at this point will have no affect.
I think you are missing the point. If Kerry lied about throwing his medals away in 1972, then said over 30 years later that he didn't throw them away, but rather, threw someone else's away and maybe some of his ribbons, and then we find out that he indeed was telling the truth in 1972 and requested replacement medals in the 1980's, what do you think the political impact would be? When we find that Kerry is lying, we need to hold his feet to the fire and not give him a pass.
Kerry has cloaked himself in the mantle of a war hero. His Vietnam exploits will be the centerpiece of the upcoming convention. If Kerry threw his medals away and then lied about it, the political impact will be devastating.
How about focusing some of this energy in getting the word out about his very real and very well documented national security record? His actions, votes, and statements as a Senator are far more relevant to this election than anything he did, or did not do, back in 1970.
Kerry's voting record on national security issues has already been publicized in GOP political ads. Some of us find it relevant that in 1970 Kerry was a member of the radical VVAW, which made false and dastardly claims against Vietnam veterans. We find his testimony before Congress as being filled with lies and deceit. His two meetings with the Communist Vietnamese in Paris while hostilities were still going on and then coming back to the US advocating their negotitating positions gave aid and comfort to the enemy. Kerry's associations with Jane Fonda, Ramsey Clark, and others of that ilk are not forgotten. Kerry was instrumental in convincing the Democrat Congress to cut off funds to the South Vietnames dooming them to reeducation camps, slaughter, and fleeing the country as boat people.
Alas, I feel my comments are falling on deaf ears.
It is difficult to listen to someone who has a closed mind when it comes to Kerry and his medals. Kerry has not come up with an explanation as to why Lehman signed duplicate medal citations and he refuses to release his military records. I don't want to give him a pass.
Last time - your efforts are better spent elsewhere.
I don't have a closed mind, I've just seen enough of this come across my own desk to know that it is not as unusual as it may seem from the outside.
As for supposition - you are right. And right now that is ALL you have. Sec. Lehman, a man of impeccable character and credentials, abviously saw no flaw, and signed them. You 'suspect' something may be up, but lack the experience, expertise, and information to prove it. Yet, for some reason you continue to drone on and on and on.
I would LOVE to see you direct this level of energy and enthusiasm at an issue that will actually impact the election - because this one WONT.
Sorry, but I have written people up for awards, served on USN awards panels, and received awards. You may try to pass this off as normal or regular, but it isn't.
As for supposition - you are right. And right now that is ALL you have. Sec. Lehman, a man of impeccable character and credentials, abviously saw no flaw, and signed them. You 'suspect' something may be up, but lack the experience, expertise, and information to prove it. Yet, for some reason you continue to drone on and on and on.
You either don't get the point or purposely trying to avoid it. I am not attacking Sec Lehman. It has nothing to do with him or even Kerry getting replacement medals, if that is indeed the case. Kerry earned them and he can get replacements provided he meets the requisite criteria. The point is that Kerry has flip-flopped or not on whether he threw his medals away. First he did and now he didn't. Just a few months ago on GMA he stated categorically that he never threw his medals away. If he requested replacement medals in the 1980s, then it is significant politically. I can't make it any clearer than that.
I would LOVE to see you direct this level of energy and enthusiasm at an issue that will actually impact the election - because this one WONT.
Except for the misspent time I have spent with you, I have already directed my observations to my representatives, the RNC, and the media. The ball is now in their court to see how it will be pursued and what the results are. I have received written replies back saying they are interested and will look into it. I wouldn't be so sure that this is a non-issue.
Let's break down 'normal':
Kerry returns as a leader of VVAW and goes before Congress speaking about a slew of killings, murders, war crimes and general abuse of the entire Vietnamese population, at least generally. Kerry tosses his own medals. He's not sure about that, in hindsight, and seems to invent multiple stories to explain it. I don't think he's ever said he regrets saying the former. And the question about Lehman's documents goes to the latter.
Given that, did Kerry believe he earned his Silver Star by commiting a war crime? The incident with the rocket had him heading straight in against enemy fire, supposedly, putting the troops in danger, the other two boats that might have had to rescue them, tow them out, etc., as someone else pointed out. The weapon was described as a one-off rocket. There's no indication of two weapons being found, or that two rockets were aimed at them, or anything like that being suggested. His supporters call this 'gung-ho', including the two of his crewman who now back his candidacy. The officer reviewing this for a citation wondered if Kerry should be court-martialed. He beaches the boat, and finds perhaps the Viet Cong who had fired now pops up, surprized, and is immediately fired upon with the boat's guns. The wounded Viet Cong runs, described as 'not missing a step' I believe, and Kerry pursues but then kills him, returning it's said with the launcher. Now he's a hero. But was this Kerry's war crime, as he himself saw it? not anyone else, but in his own mind, as he saw it? Did he or does he believe that he was awarded the Silver Star, for which he wanted a second copy, for committing a war crime?
Now of those who served with Kerry, two support him, and will show at the convention. In a photo apparently used in his campaign ads, showing a group portrait of officers, 11 of those actively oppose Kerry, now, 2 are deceased, and 4 not shown in the photo that day, also oppose Kerry.
Those who served with him, commanded him, presumely then who would have overseen his awards, all have insisted that Kerry is unfit to be CINC.
As for the Lehman citations, wouldn't that have to have been requested at some point, and approved? Or do you think someone just used his signature, found a form, typed it up when no one was looking, and filed it in the appropriate drawer without anyone knowing about it, and then went and grabbed a couple of medals - a real inside job? What form is used to request a new set of medals, and who would have to sign off on it? Aren't there any actual procedures for this, a paper trail - traceability (that word)? If you're the expert, here, then shouldn't you know the answer to that?
But it just doesn't appear to be "normal, normal, normal".
ping
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