Posted on 04/22/2004 10:49:24 AM PDT by moondoggie
How come the paperwork on Kerry's Bronze Star Award is signed by John Lehman, Sec. of the Navy????
In addition, the date Lehman (supposedly) signed it is not on the document.
Did Kerry not get the award when Chaffee was Secretary of the Navy? If not, why not?
Did Kerry get the award 15 years late?
Or is the paperwork a "sham" and somebody made a big booboo?
I'll post the document as soon as I find it again. Maybe somebody here has it bookmarked? And, if there's already been a thread on this that I missed....please direct me to the proper thread.
Thanks!
I have not read anything you have posted except what you have written on this thread today. I have no idea of your political or ideological leanings.
Did he have to file a written request for this? And who approved it? And where are those documents for both his Silver and Bronze Stars? Just to clarify to 'kabar', I'm not questioning that such exists, or doesn't. I'm asking if it does. I'm not questioning the critics of Kerry. I'm wondering about the gaps that seem to be present in Kerry's story.
This might help - OHCA
Let me ask. Have you seen this matter not of the medals, but of the action resulting in the Silver Star discussed? There seem to be a number of inconsistencies. People seem reluctant to 'go there', where they are not so much so on various other issues and inconsistencies. Maybe I'm just reading that wrong. But I wanted to ask.
Kerry has refused to release his full military records. He needs to release them so your questions can be answered. The documentation exists. I would like to see his complete award nomination forms, particularly the first PH, which was originally turned down by Hibbard. They would tell us who nominated him for the award and who approved it. I would also like an explanation as to why Secretary Lehman signed his Silver and Bronze Star award citations at least 12 years after Kerry received his medals and cititations the first time. Something is indeed odd here.
I don't think that the questions about the whys and wherefores was ever answered. We just read statements that Kerry had requested replacements from two different Sec'y of State, and that the descriptions of the honors were changed on both. I'm just relying on memory here, so don't take this as gospel, but I believe Kerry wanted some clarification to the wording of the original statements of the reason for the award.
I have read in this forum and others various accounts of what happened. The Boston Globe and Brinkley have described what occurred, at least according to Kerry and the award citations. Personally, I don't care about the inconsistencies as long as the award nomination process was followed and properly vetted. Kerry was in harm's way and should not be attacked because he wasn't acting responsibly or whatever. His superiors are the ones who, I presume, nominated him for the award and approved it.
My beef with Kerry's war record is his failure to release his records, the questions surrounding his first PH and his request to curtail his assignment after a little over four months in-country. His throwing away of his medals and antiwar activities are far more fertile areas to attack politically. The RNC will not criticize Kerry's war record for obvious reasons.
Checking your link, I would assume you have some problems with Kerry's actions as a self-described devout Catholic.
I was reading back over this thread and found that some people believe this was 'walked through', essentially - that no paperwork was involved, save for whatever amended documents or new documents. I could perhaps see that for his form 215. But the Lehman documents, from the early 1980s, were on Reagan's watch. There must be some official request, somewhere. Someone had to approve it, in order to get the Lehman versions.
There must be someone out there - maybe not reading 'freeper' - but someone who knows what was done, or not done. I agree with you, and with Kabar, that it seems reasonable that Kerry simply wanted another set of medals, and perhaps they weren't so easy to get at pawn shops or on the black market (I mean, I don't know). Silver Star and Bronze Star. So he had to go through official channels. And that meant a 1981-whatever signature.
I think your recollections are a bit off. There has never been any statement from Kerry as to why Lehman signed duplicate citations or who initiated the request and for what reason. Certainly the Secretary of State was never involved in any of this. Lehman was Secretary of the Navy.
So were his men. Some have suggested that policy was not to blindly land, because that was the standing order, but to use judgement and withdraw to the range limit of the weapon. Is it true that Zumwalt wondered if he should award - or court-martial - Kerry, on that basis? It IS very important! as are the rest of those inconsistencies. They're chilling, in fact. Was that guy really loaded up, or empty? Was he disabled and wounded, or 'didn't miss a step'? Those are very serious questions - very serious!
his request to curtail his assignment after a little over four months in-country.
You mentioned the Globe, and I mentioned at the time, from the Globe, that they found that the 'three-and-out' was not necessarily automatic procedure. It had been represented as such, by the rest, when this hit a few months ago.
But was it uncommon for a tour to last just a few months? in Vietnam? Maybe what was uncommon was the rapidity at which he collected these medals? Again, I'm asking.
We need to run with this, get it on O'Reilly.
We need to run with this, get it on O'Reilly.
It may be serious and raise questions about his judgment, but Kerry's superiors awarded him medals for his actions and wrote up passable evaluation reports. Politically, it is just not a fruitful area of attack. Regardless of how reckless Kerry was, GWB was stateside in the Air National Guard. Bob Kerrey was accused of murdering civilians as a Seal. He received the MOH.
You mentioned the Globe, and I mentioned at the time, from the Globe, that they found that the 'three-and-out' was not necessarily automatic procedure. It had been represented as such, by the rest, when this hit a few months ago.
It was not automatic. The individual had to request to leave. As someone who served as a naval officer in Vietnam for a year, I was not aware of such a regulation nor were my colleagues. It must have been fairly obscure.
But was it uncommon for a tour to last just a few months? in Vietnam? Maybe what was uncommon was the rapidity at which he collected these medals? Again, I'm asking.
Unless you wounded severely or killed, the normal tour of duty for most was 12 months. For the Marines it was 13 months. The rapidity with which one collected medals is more of a function of place than time. If you see enough action, you can acquire medals quickly. Kerry, as a self-promoter may have helped the process along. Obviously, he had political ambitions and saw his service as a resume builder.
This same topic was raised on this web site several months ago and discussed by all at great length. Some went to great trouble to research and try to determine if the certificates were phony or authentic. I seem to recall that the consensus was that, with the information available, it could not be proved or disproved.
What certificates are you talking about? There is no question about the authenticity of the citations released by Kerry.
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I understand the RPG-type weapon is a fire once, no reload, weapon.
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The DD-215 Kerry demanded in March 2001 amends (changes) his previous DD-214 that ADDS additional campaign "stars" to his Vietnam service ribbon. Essentially, it "displays" to the public extra Vietnam "campaigns" that Kerry didn't really serve in during his 120 days inside Vietnam, nor during his previous 90 days offshore on the USS Gridley, an air-conditioned guided missile cruiser.
Read his DD-215 on Kerry's web site.
Bush hasn't based his whole election hopes on his military career.
If memory serves, medals are accompanied by "certificates" signed by some higher military official. There was much debate as to whether or not the signatures on these certificates were correct or not - given the names, the dates they were in office, what office they held and whether in view of all of the forgoing, they would have been the person who would have naturally signed the certificates. Since Kerry has so far refused to release all his military records to the public, other documents which otherwise would be available to answer the questions raised cannot be viewed hence all the speculation which still cannot be answered at this time.
If you have the time and patience to slog through all the 700+ comments on this thread, you will get a taste of the nature of the discussion that took place here several months ago and to which I referred.
bump to self on why this is different.....check it out again
" http://news.findlaw.com/legalnews/lit/election2004/docs.html
They have an ENTIRELY DIFFERENT silver star medal write-up and signer.....Zumwalt."
note that copies are clean on findlaw, 'official copy' stamped on Kerry website
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