Kerry Bronze Star Certificate signature questioned. Investigation warranted?

Kerry's PDF Military Files on his Website ^ | 4-15-04 | me

[moondoggie]

How come the paperwork on Kerry's Bronze Star Award is signed by John Lehman, Sec. of the Navy????

In addition, the date Lehman (supposedly) signed it is not on the document.

Did Kerry not get the award when Chaffee was Secretary of the Navy? If not, why not?

Did Kerry get the award 15 years late?

Or is the paperwork a "sham" and somebody made a big booboo?

I'll post the document as soon as I find it again. Maybe somebody here has it bookmarked? And, if there's already been a thread on this that I missed....please direct me to the proper thread.

Thanks!

[MPJackal]

"Bush on the other hand was in the Texas Air National Guard. It would be like me trading war stories with an Indianapolis survivor."

My point still stands. Bush has never said he was a hero. He joined the National Guard. The National Guard did and still does get activated. The thing that probably really kept him from going to Vietnam is that the aircraft he was qualifies on was obsolete.

Kerry continues to wrap himself in his self proclaimed heroism. Any good he did in Vietnam, and I question that, he threw away with his actions after the war. You can not separate them. You can not pretend they did not happen. And those actions border on Treason. LT Calley and/or his men may well have done heroic things prior to the My Lai Massacre. That act alone wiped out everything else they ever did.

[xsmommy]

you GO, robt!!! : )

[Robert A Cook PE]

Bush was flying a single-seat supersonic jet fighter in days when, over the life of the plane, over 1 in 4 fighters crashed during "routine, peacetime" training and practice.

Forget war.

Bush was in much more danger than you every time he strapped on his jet.

And he passed many more thousand telephone poles flying and navigating by himself cross-country at 1000 knots than you passed sea bouys at 6 knots. 8<)

[Conspiracy Guy]

Dang. First you get to be the only Freeper at the CG / LE wedding. Now you get through to Boortz.

You are a Famous FReeper now.

Congratulations

[kabar]

One. You CAN'T land on a carrier without the straps and flightsuit and helmet because of the impact G-forces from the tailhook and drag cables!

It depends on the aircraft. I have landed on an aircraft carrrier several times aboard the COD (a prop plane). All you need is a cranium protector and be strapped in when you hit the wire or are launched.

You think any USN pilot is NOT going to let a fellow combat-rated pilot of a different service NOT try a carrier landing????????????

You must be kidding. The pilot must be first rated in the aircraft and then go through carrier quals. There is no way any Navy pilot would let an unqualified person land the aircraft, especially the CIC.

[R. Scott]

(Thinking as a Friend of Hanoi)
No one will notice if we fudge this for later. It’ll help him become President one day.

[Eva]

I think that your interpretation is probably correct. We had a post a few days ago that interpreted the evaluations that Kerry got to mean the same thing, not promotable. The post said that Kerry got less than perfect scores 19 times during a period when evaluation scores were naturally inflated. He said that one less than perfect grade could have been enough to stop your career, but nineteen less was a disaster.

[R. Scott]

I did learn to hate some of those tree lines with a passion.
Was that one of the old Tin Cans with the trough latrines? The ones that the men would occasionally drop a piece of burning paper into so it could float down under a buddies butt?

[kabar]

Based on my own experience as a naval officer who served in the same era as Kerry only twice as long, I find Kerry's evaluation reports to be average compared to his peers. The most revealing part of the reports are Section 15 of the earlier reports and section 18 of the revised form, i.e., overall evaluation. This indicates how many officers received similar ratings from the rating officer. It helps put the inflated prose into perspective.

Most of his reports cover very short periods of time. The 1 Sep 1967 - 22 Mar 1968 report on the Gridley puts Kerry in the top 2 of the total of 4 officers. The other Gridley report from another officer covering the period 23 Mar 1968 to 20 July 1968 rates Kerry 1 of 3 officers but he is not rated as outstanding. The rating officer probably just had a different standard.

There are two Vietnam reports. The report covering the period 8 Nov 1968 to 6 Dec 1968 by Hibbard is essentially nothing but unobserved. Hibbard rates 13 officers with Kerry being placed in the not-observed block of the overall evaluation along with another officer. The second major evaluation report by LCDR Elliot covers the period 14 Dec 68 to 26 Mar 69. Kerry's overall evaluation (Section 18) places him among the top 7 officers with 8 other officers being rated in a lower category.

Having written these kinds of reports, nuance and other indications help the promotion panels sort out the water walkers from the rest. I thought it was interesting that Elliot said, "LTJG Kerry was assigned to this division for only a short period of time..."

The Press will eat this stuff up because they are not familiar with the military rating system and what is average or not. Kerry was promoted to LT on January 3, two days after he was discharged and a little less than 4 years after he was commissioned. His promotion rate was average

[MJM59]

Touche' on the Kerry anti-war statements. Once I heard them, I did want to vomit. You do not turn your back and say crap like that when your guys are still fighting and dying.

Bringing up My-Lai, my father in law a Marine GySgt who received two Purple Hearts from action in VietNam and Korea, and a man I greatly respect once told me that he could understand Calley's actions because you never really knew just who the bad guys were.

Not sure if I am totally sold on the obsolete plane explanation. While it is true that it was an old plane, he always could have qualified on a up to date plane and flown in active duty service if he had chosen to do so. He just did not want to go to VietNam.

[R. Scott]

… his arm bleeding and in pain …

Isn’t that the “wound” that was treated with a dab of bacitracin?

[Robert A Cook PE]

Not true.

Bush was flying a "modern" enough plane, but one specifically designed for high-altitude bomber intercept missions.

It didn't have the right bomb racks, cannon, and rocket fire control systems to be useful in air-ground missions in Vietnam. The very few North Vietnamese planes that did get up in the air were taken out by fighters already present (F4's for example) that were already near the target.

He (bush) DID volunteer to go to Vietnam (to either the one squadron that was tried over there, or to retrain and go in a different type of plane).

Hhe was turned down by the USAF because he )Bush) had fewer flight hours than other, already qualified pilots who already had combat experience! So, knwoing that the war was turning down at that point (71-72), and because the USAF was reducing pilot strength, and because he DIDN'T have the combat experience to replace pilots returning from Vietnam who were already "biumping" him from the seat, Bush effectively "stopped' flight qual's.

(This is the period when the democrats claim he was AWOL by not taking the flight physical! But a flight physical isn't required if you're not going to be flying, and a regular physical isn't required.)

Shortly after, Bush transferred his "duty drill weekends" to the Alabama base.

[R. Scott]

I remember having a “good” grade on a evaluation instead of the obligatory “outstanding”. I was up for a courtsmartial in the old unit. The commander of my new unit noticed it instantly and asked how badly I had messed up.

[SAMWolf]

I like the casrd and quote on Gorelick.

[calcowgirl]

Biographical Note

John F. Lehman, Jr. was born in Philadelphia, Pennsylvania on September 14, 1942. He received a Bachelor's Degree in international relations from St. Joseph's College in 1964, and spent three years in the Air Force Reserves while attending Cambridge University. In 1968 he left the Air Force Reserves and accepted a commission of Ensign in the Navy, where he advanced to the rank of Commander. After serving on the National Security Council and as Deputy Director of the U.S. Arms Control and Disarmament Agency, he was president of Abington Corporation. Lehman was selected to be Secretary of the Navy on January 23, 1981 and remained in that post until April 10, 1987.

http://www.history.navy.mil/ar/lima/lehman.htm

[MPJackal]

I don't think I could argue that he was begging to go, but he was available, he just got lucky if you want to put it that way.

As for your uncle, that was pretty much how I felt, that I could understand how it happened and why. But I read some reports from a helicopter pilot that witnessed what they did and was so horrified that he actually ordered his gunner to shot any American that did not stop killing villagers. I also read a statement from one of the soldiers on the ground about what they did. Said they rounded up everyone, men, women, children, infants. Threw them in a ditch and killed them all. Scalped some, mutilated some. Those boys lost that day, it in that place. But I was not there so.....

Back to your Indianapolis survivor comment. That actually happened to me, in a Sears Auto Center near Pittsburgh, PA.
Very humbling.

[Ann Archy]

There is NO glass house....you ANT there to be, but there isn't one. Kerry is a FRAUD...he said he was the skipper on a boat that got hit, but he WASN'T!!!

[MJM59]

Oh, please. I heard the same argument when Bush was running against McCain. I equate George Bush's flying in the ANG the same way I see my limited experience driving stock cars at the Richard Petty Driving Experience and racing the Skip Barber Racing Series. Yeah, I've done it but it does not make me Mario Andretti. The same way Bush is no Chuck Yeager. He was not pushing the envelope, he was not up against SAMS or MiGs, and Kenny Loggins was not singing Danger Zone every time he went up in the hostile skys of Texas.

[VeniVidiVici]

Thanks, Hobson. I even read that too. Didn't click.

So now I wonder why he changed boats, from PCF-44 to PCF-94 after only a month.

[MJM59]

My-Lai.. I just do not know. I heard the same thing about the helicopter pilot. It is pretty easy to look back and try to judge these men. My first instinct was always to condemn their actions. But, until you walk a mile in their shoes, there is just no way to know what was the right thing to do. That is the hard part about war, the line between right and wrong can become pretty blurry at times.

My father in law was also a Chosin Reservoir survivor, definitely saw his fair share of war. I really respected him a lot. He died of Agent Orange related cancer. I recently saw a older man that had either a license plate frame of perhaps it was the licence plate itself that said, Bataan Survivor. I was really tempted to stop him just so I could shake his hand. Everyone who has ever chosen to serve their country, especially in times of war deserves a certain amount of respect.