Kerry Bronze Star Certificate signature questioned. Investigation warranted?

Kerry's PDF Military Files on his Website ^ | 4-15-04 | me

[moondoggie]

How come the paperwork on Kerry's Bronze Star Award is signed by John Lehman, Sec. of the Navy????

In addition, the date Lehman (supposedly) signed it is not on the document.

Did Kerry not get the award when Chaffee was Secretary of the Navy? If not, why not?

Did Kerry get the award 15 years late?

Or is the paperwork a "sham" and somebody made a big booboo?

I'll post the document as soon as I find it again. Maybe somebody here has it bookmarked? And, if there's already been a thread on this that I missed....please direct me to the proper thread.

Thanks!

[Lokibob]

OOPs, sorry, you are correct, sir, the stars indicate the campaigns on the vnsm.

[Chad Fairbanks]

Maybe I'm thinking you need to quit apologizing for Kerry, and actually go back and read my post regarding the campaign stars - The first one I mentioned was for the Gridley, because it counts. THEN, I mention the dates of two further campaign periods he was there for part of. I can't find the fourth.

Now, can you show me the fourth, without mentioning the Gridley AGAIN, since I already counted it?

(Oh, and by the way? You were in 'nam a hell of a lot longer than Kerry was...)

[kabar]

I don't know why the last sentence of the Silver Star citation was changed. As I mentioned, it could have been some additional boilerplate that was being used at the time different from the original. Who knows some of the wording could have been in the actual write up for the award and added to the citation synopsis. I can't judge until I have more facts.

[kabar]

My point was that maybe Kerry qualified for two service stars from the Gridley. His DD215 state Vietnam Service medal with 4 bonze stars. I think that makes 5 actually- the ribbon plus four. His DD214 just lised the Vietnam Service Medal.

[Robert A Cook PE]

NO!

Once the citation is signed, the award is GIVEN. That's it! You've got the award. Pin it on on stop.

There is NO "chain of command" involved!

There is NO "rewrites and "do-overs" involved... (Unless you're Clinton taking four or five practice-swings (in the middle of the fairway) until you get the ball where you want it....

There is NO reason for a discharged, VERY JUNIOR OFFICER no longer in active duty, heck - there's no reason for ANYBODY EVER to get "new medal citations rewritten twice (much less three times!) for same medal for the same action in a war that's been over for 15 years.

Why distract the Secretary of the Navy (when he's fighting the Cold War, trying to prevent the scandals and repair the equipment the men so desperately need, trying to PREVENT nuclear war and find the spies and turncoats that were to soon give our precious submarine technology, our crypto ecrets, and our operational secrets to the Soviet Union)?

Why DEMAND that the Secretary of the Navy spend time giving "you" a third re-write of an old medal for the same action you ALREADY got changed when HE is trying to prevent nuclear war?

[kabar]

You make some good points. I would only add why would any sane person would go to such lengths to make such minor changes. That is why I said he is nuts and stuck in a time warp.

[MJY1288]

Fair enough, But I think any alterations to a Citation that enhances the description of an action is wrong. I could understand if there was a correction of the facts, but there is no doubt that the Lehman Citation doesn't make any corrections, and in fact it does enhance the wording for what I consider, Political reasons

[Chad Fairbanks]

And I can still only account, by the dates of the campaigns, of ONE star for when in theater on the Gridley...

[kaehurowing]

In response to the issue about whether Kerry inadvertently found himself in the middle of a shooting war, see the Washington Post article that just came out: http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A34941-2004Apr22.html

They talk about this and quote Kerry:

During that tedious stint off the Vietnamese coast, Kerry took note of light aluminum boats that were patrolling the coastal waterways with small crews and were mostly out of harm's way. The 50-foot open boats were known as patrol craft fast (PCF) -- "swift boats."

He decided that was the assignment he wanted -- his own boat and his own crew; and action that was not necessarily deadly. In February 1968, he requested to go to "in country" in Vietnam, seeking swift-boat duty.

*****

He trained for his new mission and arrived at the U.S. base at Cam Ranh Bay in Vietnam that November.

The duty was far more dangerous that what Kerry had signed up for. Under a program called Operation Sea Lords, swift boats were ordered to be more aggressive, to penetrate deeper into the Mekong Delta and Viet Cong enclaves -- and to smoke out the enemy. They were sitting ducks, loudly cruising the rivers with no cover.

"If given a choice, I didn't want particularly to be in a foxhole," Kerry said. "I preferred to be in war on a boat -- not in the day-to-day battle. There wasn't as much risk and constancy of battle at the time [in the boats]. Obviously, it didn't end up that way. But I had volunteered, so you do what you have to do." In his four months in country, he would command two swift boats.

[stylin19a]

Vietnam Service Medal
Devices
A. Bronze stars
Bronze stars are authorized for participation in the the 29 campaigns specified for the Vietnam War. A silver star is worn in lieu of five bronze stars.

The following are the only active campaigns during Kerry's 2 short tours of duty.

- Vietnam Counteroffensive, Phase III (Army, Navy, USCG): June 1, 1967 to January 29, 1968

- Vietnam Air/Ground (USAF): January 22 to July 7, 1968

- Tet Counteroffensive (Army, Navy, USCG): January 30 to April 1, 1968

- Vietnam Air Offensive, Phase III (USAF): April 1 to October 31, 1968

- Vietnam Counteroffensive, Phase IV (Army, Navy, USCG): April 2 to June 30, 1968

Vietnam Air Offensive, Phase IV (USAF): November 1, 1968 to February 22, 1969

- Vietnam Counteroffensive, Phase VI (Army, Navy, USCG): Nov 2, 1968 to Feb 22, 1969

- Tet 1969 Counteroffensive (Army, USAF, USCG): February 23 to June 8, 1969

I don't know how many months the Gridley was in the South China sea during Kerry's 5 months aboard 'tween 12/67-06/68.

Anybody know when the Gridley was in Vietnam or its contiguous waters or airspace; or, for any period of service during the same time period in Thailand, Laos, or Cambodia ?

- Does Kerry rightfully get to wear the 4 Bonze Stars on the Vietnam Service Medal ?

[Robert A Cook PE]

Kerry was "in theater" ONLY from about March 5, 68 to May 20, 1968. That's all. He might have had leave on-shore in that time, but he never was in-country in combat. - One story says he flew into a base and saw the Swift boats "in harbor." Does "that" count for a "campaign ribbon" in your book?

Why do we know?

He told the San Diego paper he "off Midway" on February 26 - that was when he found out some classmate had died.

His ship had returned to California by the third of June: So they HAD to HAVE LEFT Vietnam 8-10 days earlier to have arrived back before the first weekend in June.

Assuming that they did NOT stop in Pearl Harbor for a couple of days.

So, most of March + all of April + part of May he was sitting in air-conditioned comfort offshore in guided missile frigate sailing back and forth doing plane guard duty.

[Chad Fairbanks]

I can only account for one earned while on the Gridley, and two (he was in country during an overlap, essentially) others during his time there. I can't account for the fourth one...

[Robert A Cook PE]

See my dates about the Gridley in nbr 391.

[pawdoggie]

Maybe we haf another Admeeral Boorda on our hands. You know what happens to Admeeral Boordas don't you?

[William Tell]

Chad Fairbanks said: "Now, can you show me the fourth, without mentioning the Gridley AGAIN, since I already counted it? "

See my post #324. Unfortunately, it mentions Gridley AGAIN because the dates which the Gridley spent in the theater of war apparently lapped two campaigns. I think just a single day of participation during a campaign qualifies one for the bronze service star representing that campaign.

Also note that the fourth campaign was listed by the source I found as being an "Army, USAF, USCG" campaign but not "Navy". It may be that Naval river patrols qualified nonetheless. But it would be interesting to see the documentation on such a claim, since apparently the military permitted Kerry to amend his DD214 as if it was so.

[Robert A Cook PE]

Yeah.

Count Hillary has him drawn and quartered .... Right before she is crowned queen at the convention.

[Robert A Cook PE]

Gridley "dates" are in Nbr 391.

All offshore. Does being on leave count?

[Chad Fairbanks]

Well, he was on the gridley from 8 Jun 67 to 20 July 68... which would have put him there for

The Gridley left the US for SE Asia around February 9, 1968 and left for the U.S. on May 27, 1968...

This may make him eligible for the following campaigns, but I guess it would depend on the ship movements...

Tet Counteroffensive (30 January-l April 1968)
Vietnamese Counteroffensive (2 April-30 June 1968) Phase IV

[stylin19a]

thanx..you all are too good & too fast. even with cable internet, I'm just too slow. I should just keep hitting reload until the answer appears .

[mtntop3]

"There is no significant difference between the citations signed by Lehman and Hyland and Zumwalt excpt for one sentence on the Silver Star citation, which could just be new boilerplate. It needs to be questioned."

It does indeed. The new boilerplate is heavy, heavy.

From the Zumwalt (original):

"Lieutenant (junior grade) KERRY's devotion to duty, courage under fire, outstanding leadership, and exemplary professionalism directly contributed to the success of the operation and were in keeping with the highest traditions of the U.S. Navy." (Note use of the word "contributed."

From the Lehman:

"The extraordinary daring and personal courage of Lieutenant (jg) Kerry in atttacking a numerically superior force in the face of intense fire were responsible for the highly successful mission. By his brave action, bold initiative, and unwavering devotion to duty, Lieutentant (jg) Kerry reflected great credit upon himself and upheld the highest tradition of the United States Naval Service."

There is a marked difference in the, above, concluding sentences of these versions....Note that in the glowing, Lehman certificate, Kerry is given full - total - credit for the mission instead of having just, as the Zumwalt certificate states, "directly contributed" to it. These ARE significant differences.