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To: Physicist; Barn Owl
If the universe is all that exists, and, according to the "Big Bang Theory", the universe is continually expanding, then what is the universe expanding into? Hmmmm???

Neat, suggesting that we look at it as if everything were shrinking. It's fun thinking: "Yeah, that probably is mathematically the same, but is it physically the same?" At the sub-atomic level I suspect not, but that's a side-issue.

However, for explanatory purposes (in my truly humble opinion) I'd prefer to stick with expansion, so as not to cause conceptual distractions. I haven't taught this subject, so I may be wrong, but at least to me it's easier to focus on the question of whether the expanding universe is expanding "into" something. That's where the hangup exists.

At each moment of the expansion, there's no "out there, beyond" the universe. It always occupies all the space there is. But distances keep growing. Anyway, that works for me.

69 posted on 04/11/2004 4:55:48 AM PDT by PatrickHenry (Why yes, that IS a gun in my pocket.)
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To: PatrickHenry
"Yeah, that probably is mathematically the same, but is it physically the same?"

I don't understand. Are you saying that there's something about the physical universe that is not describable mathematically?

I'd prefer to stick with expansion, so as not to cause conceptual distractions. I haven't taught this subject, so I may be wrong, but at least to me it's easier to focus on the question of whether the expanding universe is expanding "into" something.

But that in itself is a conceptual distraction. Again: the universe is not an object that exists in space, and which needs to take up more space as it grows. The universe is the space itself. It requires no medium in which it can float.

[Geek alert: there are several popular models that postulate the existence of additional physical dimensions, but these don't solve your conceptual problem. In some models these additional dimensions are themselves expanding, and in others, they are radically contracting! These models are denoted "AdS5" models, which means that the 5th dimension is "anti-deSitter". In such models, the universe as we see it is a 4-dimensional slice of a 5-dimensional space. The 5th dimension extends outwards from our slice, but it's constantly contracting back towards the slice. Any particle that makes an excursion into the 5th dimension is inexorably drawn by geometry back to this orbifold plane. So you see that although in such a model, our universe does exist in an external medium, there is no sense in which our universe "expands into" that medium. But expand it nevertheless does.]

71 posted on 04/11/2004 5:47:04 AM PDT by Physicist
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To: PatrickHenry
But distances keep growing.

.... which is mathematically indistinguishable from from rulers getting shorter.

:-)

82 posted on 04/11/2004 1:20:30 PM PDT by longshadow
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To: PatrickHenry
what ever happened to your buddy that used to write in blue fonts all the time ? I don't see any of his posts anymore.
actually, i kindof miss the dialog you two would have. very entertaining.
95 posted on 04/11/2004 7:04:51 PM PDT by usastandsunited
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To: PatrickHenry
At each moment of the expansion, there's no "out there, beyond" the universe. It always occupies all the space there is. But distances keep growing. Anyway, that works for me.

It does for me, too. Do you struggle at all with "without confusion, without separation"?

(I'm not trying to argue. I'm sincerely fascinated by your comment.)

124 posted on 04/12/2004 11:39:59 AM PDT by Taliesan (fiction police)
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