England and Just Who Has The Guns

MensNewsDaily.com ^ | March 29, 2004 | Jan Ireland

[kimber]

Self defense is a right given to humanity by God. Because it is a right, it cannot be taken away by man, state, country, or the United Nations. But it can be surrendered, which is what gun control bites are designed to bring about.

It is not necessary to believe in God to recognize the instinctive drive for survival in the human species. We see it in the recovery from illnesses that should have been fatal; survival from a high fall that should have killed; mothers lifting automobiles single handedly to rescue a child underneath. The drive to protect and continue the human race is inherent.

Part of the ruse in gun control is the language used to quiet that drive. Gun “owners” in England suffer from that ruse now. Perhaps we should clarify that the “England” many Americans refer to is a bit of a misnomer. The United Kingdom is made up of England, Scotland, Wales and Ireland. Gun laws are nuanced differently throughout those areas.

But in all cases, registering guns for so-called safety; granting access to guns only from locked cabinets at Rifle Clubs; “approving” a few visible rifles or black powder guns; removing self defense as a legal answer – are all examples of rights having been surrendered. Ask Tony Martin how he feels about having been imprisoned for using a firearm to protect himself and his property, after multiple robberies.

That a “Second Amendment” is not ensconced in English historical documents is immaterial. The tremendous contributions England has made to history are immensely laudable. America is closer to England than any other country on earth, and owes a tremendous debt of gratitude to our closest ally. Many of the original supporters of the Second Amendment were from England.

That the distinguished historical contributions of England happened not to include a “Second Amendment” has no bearing on whether or not that right exists. We need only note that the American Founders thought it important enough to encase in the Bill of Rights of the United States Constitution.

History has many times lived through the destruction caused by gun control extremists. They pop out at every gun-related tragedy, hoping to bring about just one more “reasonable” limitation on guns – and therefore self defense.

It bears repeating. History is replete with examples of despots – who first disarmed the populace. What the state grants you one day, it can take away the next.

In response to a recent article (“Second Amendment Set To Go Global With First Stop England”), I heard from a reader in England who misunderstood the difference in rights and privileges. He holds that he “owns” several guns, that there are more than a hundred members in his rifle club, and that none of them are criminals. I don’t doubt this at all.

But he also mentions a Firearms Certificate.

I have to contend – the state is letting him “play” with his guns. How would the state react if he wanted to use “his” guns in a way the state did not sanction? And what does he say to someone who wants a “certificate” but is denied? Likely nothing, since speaking out could very well have him deemed “inappropriate” for further “owning” of guns.

America has a plethora of gun regulations, and they vary widely from state to state. John R. Lott, Jr., has written THE BIAS AGAINST GUNS: Why Almost Everything You’ve Heard About Gun Control Is Wrong. It is a collection of superb research – empirical proof of how guns are used to save lives and protect property in America.

Laws should not be broken – neither in America, nor in England. That does not mean the truth about imprudent laws cannot be brought forth. The branch office being opened in England by Alan Gottlieb of the Citizens Committee for the Right to Keep and Bear Arms needs the support of all gun owners, in all of Great Britain.

Self defense is at stake.

[kimber]

Looks like England did not learn!

[Risor]

Nor do Nations have a right of self-defense, I suppose.

[GrandEagle]

But he also mentions a Firearms Certificate.
I recieved this post from a fellow Freeper that lives in IL. when I asked if they had to have a "permit" just to own any firearm.

Yes, it does. One has to apply for and receive a Firearm Owners' ID Card (FOID) which costs $5 for five years. A FOID is required for Illinois residents to possess a firearm or ammunition anywhere other than at a shooting range under the supervision of a FOID-card holder. A current and valid FOID card is required to purchase firearms or ammunition, and is also required to possess a non-disassembled firearm outside of one's home or fixed place of business (outside the shooting range exception noted above). With a current and valid FOID, one may transport any legal firearm provided that it is stored in a closed container and unloaded, and provided that one doesn't run afoul of local restrictions.

Note that the statute explicitly does not require that a person's FOID be current in order to possess firearms or ammunition within their home or fixed place of business, or to possess ammunition anywhere; nonetheless, some prosecutors don't seem to know that. Additionally, while nothing in statute regards a loaded magazine (which is not installed in a firearm) as aloded weapon, a "firearms fact sheet" published by the head of the state police claimed that a loaded magazine counts as a loaded firearm, and some police officers and prosecutors may still believe that (the current version of the "fact sheet" has been corrected).

Summary:

Non-resident:
May possess firearms and ammunition, provided that when in a vehicle the firearms are not readily accessible. Residents of adjoining states 18 and older may purchase rifles or non-pistol-grip shotguns with a 24-hour harassment period.

State resident--no FOID
May not possess any firearms or ammunition, except when on a range under the supervision of a FOID-card holder; there are limited grace periods for people moving into the state or for people who inherit firearms.

State resident--current FOID
May purchase and possess firearms and ammunition; there is a 24-hour harassment period for rifles and non-pistol-grip shotguns and a 72-hour harassment period for handguns and pistol-grip shotguns. When outside one's home, fixed place of business, or shooting range, firearms must be unloaded and kept in a closed container.

State resident--expired FOID
May possess firearms and ammunition; firearms must be disassembled except when at one's home or fixed place of business, or at a range under the supervision of a FOID-card holder. For some reason, prosecutors don't seem to recognize that the latter actions are permissible with an expired FOID, but while the statutes dealing with firearm purchase or transportation explicitly require that a firearm-possessor's FOID be current and valid, the language relating to general possession merely requires that the FOID have been previously been issued by the Illinois State Police.

I was shocked that this much "jumping though hoops" is required anywhere in the US.

[Timocrat]

I was shocked that this much "jumping though hoops" is required anywhere in the US.

Hah! Try owning a gun in New York

[GrandEagle]

Hah! Try owning a gun in New York
I have been working off and on for about a year on a project in Waterford, NY. (Just outside of Albany)
In talking with the guys up there they almost fell our of their chair when they found out that we could buy pretty much what we wanted to and could carry a pistol on our person.
The first response was a very loud "LOADED?". Of course my response was "why would you carry it unloaded?".
I really feel for you guys. I really didn't realise just how much progress the enemies of our great Republic had made.

[GrandEagle]

This is copied from a previous post in another discussion, but this is prettymuch how it works here.

Down here (Alabama) you have to be 18 to purchase a long gun, and either 18 or 21(I'm not really sure) for a handgun. Anyone 16 (I think it is) and over can possess any firearm.
You may not carry a handgun concealed in an automobile without having a CCP. You may transport a handgun not concealed in your automobile.
If one was to carry a handgun concealed without a CCP while NOT committing a violent crime, it is a misdemeanor that carries a minor fine. If you don't want to pay the fine just request a jury trial and it will be all over because the grand jury would never vote to bill the crime. You have to be 18 to purchase ammunition.
Unless there are unusual circumstances I think you have to be 25 to get a CCP.
Generally here in Alabama, if you are not a criminal committing a crime, or just being stupid waving a firearm around, you will not run into problems with the law.

[thackney]

BANG

[GrandEagle]

I just checked and found you are from Texas. Isn't Texas pretty much like Alabama when it comes to firearms?

[Timocrat]

Isn't Texas pretty much like Alabama when it comes to firearms?

You bet, maybe even easier. You need a clean record to get a CHL but anybody over 18 can own a long gun. I lived in NY for a while till I saw the light. Which reminds me I need to get some practice in with the Glock 9mm.

[Old Dirty Bastiat]

In Alaska & Vermont you don't even need a CHL to carry concealed. I think the New Hampshire legislature is trying to pass similar law. In these places I think pretty much the only gun laws are the Federal ones. It's encouraging that states can effectively chuck all their gun laws with only positive effects.

Anybody know of any other states that may do this?

[Timocrat]

Although I oppose any CHL it is handy in Tx because once the gunshop knows you have one there is no delay for the Federal imposed background check

[Travis McGee]

Illinois may be the worst, but Kali and New York can't be far behind.

[lainde]

I'm at work and will have to check back later. But does any FReeper know of a past thread for first time gun buyers?

[2111USMC]

"I was shocked that this much "jumping though hoops" is required anywhere in the US."

Actually, and any Illinois resident may correct me if I'm wrong, but I do believe that there are individual city municipalities in Illinois that outlaw gun ownership of any kind within the city limits.

[GrandEagle]

I do believe that there are individual city municipalities in Illinois that outlaw gun ownership of any kind within the city limits.
We've got that covered too. In our state, no municipality can pass stricter firearms laws. I'm not sure if it is in our State Constitution or just law.
You guys need to come on down. Anytime you want, we welcome both you and your weapons. We could use some more strong citizens!
Seriously, this has "opened my eyes" so to speak, about things to watch for. Thanks for the conversation.

[GrandEagle]

Kali and New York can't be far behind.
It is my understanding that in NY City it is practically impossible to own a firearm.

[Travis McGee]

Yeah, I understand it's a real bit**, unless you're a well-connected VIP like Don Imus. Then it's easy.

[neverdem]

It is my understanding that in NY City it is practically impossible to own a firearm.

You're supposed to pay and have papers for all guns. Possession of hanguns is more expensive and harder to get the papers, i.e. weapons are registered and individuals licensed. Permits to carry are very difficult to acquire, and now retain. People who have had them, such as William F. Buckley, are being denied renewal of licenses to carry for no reason other than the current mayor is a hoplophobe.

[GrandEagle]

You're supposed to pay and have papers for all guns
Thanksfor the update.

[Old Dirty Bastiat]

Good point.

You also get reciprocity in a lot of states.

Alaska kinda has the best of both worlds that way. You don't need a CHL to carry there, but you can get one just for reciprocity in other states.

I don't know you also get the advantage of not having the delay for the federally imposed background check in Alaska too, but I would assume you would get that advantage too.

Anyway, to me, the Alaska laws seem to be ideal. You don't have to have a CHL to carry, but you can still get the advantages of the CHL if you want them. It's actually better than no gun laws at all.