Cosmologists claim Universe has been forming and reforming for eternity

Nature Magazine ^ | 26 April 2002 | Tom Clarke

[longshadow]

Theme for an Imaginary Western (Bruce / Brown)

When the wagons leave the city
for the forest, and further on
Painted wagons of the morning
dusty roads where they have gone
Sometimes travelling through the darkness
met the summer coming home
Fallen faces by the wayside
Looked as if they might have known

O the sun was in their eyes
and the desert that dries
In the country towns
where the laughter sounds

O the dancing and the singing
O the music when they played
O the fires that they started
O the girls with no regret
Sometimes they found it
Sometimes they kept it
Often lost it on the way
Fought each other to possess it
Sometimes died in sight of day

[UnChained]

"Oh no! Not again!"

LOL

I'm sure that someone could come with mathematical proof that the Multiverse is merely the result of a single use of an Infinite Improbability Drive.

[gg188]

Well that much is provable - The Fifth Dimension hasn't toured together in years.

Is this the dawning of the Age of Aquarius?

[Heatseeker]

Is this the dawning of the Age of Aquarius?

I hope not - I hated that song. Right up there with "Stairway to Heaven" as the most overplayed song in radio history.

[<1/1,000,000th%]

The extra dimensions have not been observed. The particles that string theory predicts have not been observed. The theory itself is background dependent, meaning that you have to tweak it to fit observed data.

I've predicted elsewhere that it will eventually fall to some form of quantum gravity, but it's still early. ;)

[Flightdeck]

"Yeah, right. Then by what natural laws did anything go Bang?"

According the widely accepted inflationary model of the Big Bang, the Higg's inflaton field getting stuck on the energy plateau for 10^-35 seconds created an enormous negative pressure approximately 10^100 times that of all gravity of all mass. Negative pressure is the mechanism for which gravity can be repulsive (true!). This theory has been extremely successful in describing the pattern in the cosmic microwave background, which is why most physicists accept it.

Of course, what created the Higg's field and why did it find that energy plateau? I'd say God did it.

[Flightdeck]

I don't buy many worlds, in favor of inflationary theory. I briefly wrote something down in post 86.

[LogicWings]

We should remember that there are kinds of infinity.

One of the things that I have always understood was that this statement was wrong. There is only one infinity.

You can disagree if you wish, but if you really understand the concept of "Infinity" there cannot be separate "Infinities."

The concept implies unity.

[LogicWings]

I thought it was the Pope who told Hawkings that it was permissible to study the Big Bang as far back as the moment of creation but not before. That's what I recall hearing Hawking say in a documentary years ago.

I never heard that. Explains everything to me. Can't question what we can't answer.

The only alternative is Faith in what we can never know.

Same movie.

[MHGinTN]

I have it on good authority that the first human words spoken were 'uh oh' ...

[teldon30]

Where is Nathan Brazil when you need him?

[LogicWings]

If there is just Science, and not God, then we have only cause and effect.

How do you know THAT? This presupposes a knowledge that you cannot have based upon your next premise. . .

This necessarily means determinism; i.e., every current action, down to those of the smallest subatomic particles, was predetermined 16 billion years ago.

You cannot know that there is "determinism" because this presupposes a knowledge you cannot have if you are utterly predetermined. You don't "know" anything. You are a bunch of chemicals reacting to other chemicals.

Thus the following is nonsense.

This necessarily means determinism; i.e., every current action, down to those of the smallest subatomic particles, was predetermined 16 billion years ago. Emotions are just predetermined chemical reactions. There is no free will.

You cannot know what happened "16 billion years ago" because it was totally determined. You cannot "know" that those numbers are accurate. You whole argument falls apart.

And, you cannot postulate a "God" because you have no basis upon which to know anything. If you do not accept the validity of your senses you have no basis upon which to understand anything, including the concept of said, "God."

You cannot escape free will because you must chose whether to eat or starve, jump off the bridge or not, get a job or not, go on welfare or not, whether to masturbate or not. You are confronted with free will every moment of every day, in almost every situation. You cannot, from an apriori supposition, as you are doing here, assert that free will doesn't exist, because you cannot prove the apriori supposition. BY DEFINITION.

[LogicWings]

Interestingly, it is always the invincibly ignorant who do not even know the correct spelling of the name of the scientist they "despise."

One of the first things I learned way back before the internet and it was all BBSs was that people make mistakes in spelling and this didn't mean they were "invincibly ignorant." I have long since quit nitpicking over such crap.

That is reserved for the intellectually vacant who have no other arguments.

[LogicWings]

Perhaps one kind of question must be asked whenever we posit a most fundamental infinity. Is it intelligent and personal as we are?

It borders upon the Fallacy of Composition, but I find it difficult to conceive that INFINITY could contain any fewer qualities, including intelligence and personality, than I possess.

It would violate the definition of "all inclusive."

[LogicWings]

Of course, what created the Higg's field and why did it find that energy plateau? I'd say God did it.

Define your concept of "God."

I get into a lot of trouble here, but the problem is in defining the concept. People rarely understand this aspect.

How did you come by this concept, "God"? What does it really mean? Have you ever 'experienced' it? Or is it just a floating abstraction that has no relation to reality? How did 'God' do 'it?'

To say, "nobody knows" isn't good enough because then you have to admit, you don't know that "God did it."

I will say this one time. I'm not questioning your belief. I'm questioning HOW you know your belief. Until you can answer that, you have nothing really.

[Flightdeck]

Your questions are important ones, and I can tell you my personal beliefs and HOW I believe them, but they don't satisfactorily explain the birth of the universe any more than the most recent physical theories (which don't even come close). I think "God" is probably more like a network, where each of us is a part of God and the sum of all of us is greater than the sum of each of us. I know that's abstract, but I can tell you why I believe in something at all. I have been conscious and completely aware outside my body. You can research out of body experiences with as much skepticism as you like, but it is real, and there is no conflict with researching it in a laboratory environment with scientific protocols. When this happens to you, you pass the point of BELIEVING to the point of KNOWING that there is existence outside the purely material body. With a lot of practice over the years, I have slowly become a little better at inducing this type of thing, but it is a life-changing experience for someone with little or only moderate belief in an afterlife, as I was. On a side note, I am a research scientist by profession, so no stranger to scientific atheism. But I often note with irony some of my colleagues' fervent belief that nothing exists after death based on a lack of evidence, even though not a shred of evidence exists to support their own strong faith (in nothing).

[Doctor Stochastic]

One of the things that I have always understood was that this statement was wrong. There is only one infinity.

Then your understanding is wrong. You might start with Vilenkin's "Stories About Sets" to get a better understanding.

[tm22721]

Brings a whole new perspective to 'deja vu'.

BUMP

[cornelis]

There is only one infinity. OK, Hank, how are we going to tell LW we won't be slaves to this Infinity?

[PatrickHenry]

100