Army sets sights on XM8, a lighter, more-reliable rifle

Newark Star Ledger ^ | 3/21/2004 | Wayne Woolley

[Incorrigible]

The replacement, called the XM8, is under development at Picatinny Arsenal in Morris County and is being tested at Fort Benning, Ga.

Developers say the rifle with the futuristic-looking curves is a marked improvement over the M-16 because it is shorter, lighter, easier to clean and unlikely to jam in a firefight -- an M-16 shortcoming illustrated in the ambush that wounded former POW Jessica Lynch and killed 11 of her comrades in Iraq.

[Shooter 2.5]

Who is this dentist that you are referring to?

[finnman69]

I dont recognize the weapon?

[reluctantwarrior]

The 6.8mmSPC is an OHT manufactured boattail bullet that fragments after two inches of penetration and dumps 80% of its KE within 7inches. It is a man stopper and can be used in converted M4s for about 300 bucks per gun(new mags upper etc)

[reluctantwarrior]

OK I think after the fourth post of the Alien mockup I figured it out. Thanks

[reluctantwarrior]

He is a forensic ballistics expert who tests ammunition for the FBI and the Navy.

[Shooter 2.5]

What's his name? I'm a little familiar with Evan Marshall and Edwin J. Sanow from the book, "Stopping Power".

[tortoise]

and develop the 6.8 X 43mm round (which has as much energy at 200 yards as the M-16 round has at the muzzle, and will fragment at velocities down to 2100 FPS

Fragmentation of a 6.8mm bullet at 2100 fps will not produce interesting terminal fragmentation (I just ran the numbers to verify). Fragmentation in and of itself does not generate the lethality normally associated with short-range 5.56x45, as there are a couple different fragmentation modes and only one of those has high terminal efficacy. All the other modes are worse than no fragmentation at all.

It isn't fragmentation per se that causes the very lethal explosive fragmentation that you see from an M16, but amassing sufficient rotational energy density (joules/gram) inside the bullet that can instantaneously be converted to translational energy upon the structural failure of the bullet. For an M16A1, the threshold for this is around 2700 fps. You can still achieve the necessary threshold in the M4 with 14.5-16" barrels, but only within relatively close ranges (150m max). At 10.5", the energy density of bullet is too low at the muzzle to exhibit the fragmentation mode that the M16 is famous for.

In short, a fragmenting 6.8mm will not replicate the terminal efficacy of the classic 5.56mm M16, nor will a 10.5" 5.56x45. Using ultra-short AR15 barrels in particular is the height of stupidity. Adding a few more inches greatly increases the downrange efficacy of that particular weapon without affecting the handiness very much.

[reluctantwarrior]

The 5.56mm bullet does not deliver its KE or fragment appreciably until more than 12 inches of penetration. The reason the MK262 bullet was developed is that the SS109 doesn't kill people it punches ice pick holes and then the person exsanguinates but can still function and shoot back for awhile. The 6.8mm fragments and yaws within 2 inches and dumps 80%of its KE within 7 inches with a very large wound channel. The 6.8mm still has over 2700 fps at 200 yards vice the SS109 has less than 2400 at 50 yards form a 10.5 inch barrrel. Check out the Ar15 forum for the ballistic charts.

[Jack Black]

Second, I never saw the value of a DA/SA pistol.

Law Enforcement likes them. Obviously a lot of people are not comfortable with "cocked and locked" for a variety of reasons. But an equal number don't like DA/SA.

And since all my guns were bought as self-defense weapons, I would hate to get into a firefight and forget which firing mode I'm in.

The HK can be carried cocked and locked.

Also, I don't like the long trigger pull on the first round in single action. I haven't noticed it, but again I don't own one and have not shot it, only checked it out at the gun store.

I don't doubt the quality of HK firearms. Their reputation precedes them. But when TSHTF, give me something simple and reliable, like a Glock 30.

Hard to fault the Glock, other than looks maybe. And as you said "beauty is in the eye of the beholder" and neither the Glock nor the HK are handsome to me the way the 1911 or a nice blue HiPower is.

[reluctantwarrior]

go to ar15 forum and check out comments of sinister

[Shooter 2.5]

go to ar15 forum and check out comments of sinister

Let me try to decipher what you wrote. Are you saying this dentist in not an author where I can read his book but he's a member of ar15.com and signs in as "sinister"? I'm not a member of ar15.com so thanks anyway.

[reluctantwarrior]

No, his name is Dr. Gary Roberts, LtCmdr USNR, he is a maxillofacial surgeon and is also a trained forensic ballistic expert for NavSpecwar and the FBI. He is not a fraud and the CN18F poster needs to read more and blather less.

[thackney]

Eaker, perhaps you would like to describe your experience with the Garand.

[Charles Martel]

If the 6,8x43 cartridge, not too dissimilar from the 7x44mm cartridge once proposed by the Danish Madsen firm proves to be more generally suitable than the 5,56mm, swell, we've again advanced the state of the art, and done a little more to give the American fighting man the best possible equipment with which to accomplish his task. If that cartridge changeover proves to be financially or technologically unsuitable, we can use the new rifle in the old cartridge chambering, maintaining the option of an eventual conversion *someday* if possible. And it's at least possible to changeover older M16/M16A1/M16A2/M4/AR15 rifles as well, should the new ammunition be an absolute success, as support and rear-area backwater troops have their capabilities enhanced, first with the new ammo, maybe eventually with the new weapons as well.

It makes one wonder where we'd be if assault rifle development had continued on its original course (Fabrique Nationale's FAL, for example, was first developed around the 7.9mm Kurz cartridge). The Soviets settled on their version of the intermediate round and never looked back; but in the West, the bureaucracy resolutely dug in its heels and 7.62x51 NATO cartridge prevailed.

I appreciate the fine firearms which chamber the military .308 cartridge, but this 6.8mm round appears to hold much potential.

If the new cartridge is widely accepted, it may also bring with it another benefit: large supplies of milsurp 5.56 ammo for the civilian market. As nice as the 6.8mm cartridge might be, I doubt that we'll ever see cases of the stuff selling at gun shows before we're too old and feeble to drag ourselves out to the range. ;-)

[Shooter 2.5]

Thank you for the information. I don't get caught up in the arguments or the contests as to what's better in guns or ammunition. I'm sure there's a store clerk who has had more gun fighting experience with a rusty .38 than some of the people who run the schools or the experts who carry the "right" guns and ammunition. If someone wants to do it the "wrong" way, that's their business.

[Euro-American Scum]

Law Enforcement likes them (DA/SA). Obviously a lot of people are not comfortable with "cocked and locked" for a variety of reasons. But an equal number don't like DA/SA.

Funny. I never had a problem carrying any of my 1911s cocked and locked. There is a "snag factor" with a cocked hammer if you're carrying concealed, but then, that's why my concealed carry weapon is a Glock.

Hard to fault the Glock, other than looks maybe. And as you said "beauty is in the eye of the beholder" and neither the Glock nor the HK are handsome to me the way the 1911 or a nice blue HiPower is.

Amen to that. Glocks have a face on Gaston himself could love. I've always been partial to the look of a 1911. Classic design, timeless, in fact, IMO. But as you say, it's hard to argue with the built-in reliability of Glock pistols. They're the AK-47 of the handgun world.

Shoot safe.

[R. Scott]

A lot of people are critical of the 5.56 round, claiming it is no match for our enemies 7.62 AK round. When they get around to replacing these antiques with the newer AK 74 they will be firing the 5.45 mm round.

[Long Cut]

Thanks for the ping, Squantos. To all: myself and a few others have been beating this rifle to death ON THIS THREAD now for about seven months. Some good info and LOTS of good gun photos there.

The latest info I've seen on the ammo/rifle combo for the XM-8 is that it WILL be using 5.56mm to begin with, but it will retain the ability to easily and quickly switch to the 6.8mm SPC round if the US military so decides. The 6.8mm is gaining a bit of momentum, so this is not as farfetched as once thought.

As far as the barrel length issue: the XM-8's barrel can be anywhere from 10 inches to 24 in its SAW version. The "Standard" length is 16 inches, not ten, and there is a 20-inch tube available.

As some have suggested, the biggest problem with this is that going to a new cartridge is way tougher than going to a new rifle (not that we don't need one desperately). With new rounds, you need new mags, belt links, pouches, etc. Oh, and you ALSO, in the age of NATO, convince your allies to adopt the new round/rifle as well, shouldering that financial burden. Sure, us and the Brits could pull it off, but not some other, poorer countries.

Bottom line is, it'll likely happen, but over a longer period of time than some might prefer. Look for SPECWAR types to be the first on the block with the new rifle/ammo combination, followed by the infantry and Marines with the 5.56mm version. That'll be replaced in good time, as more ammo and parts become available. Give a total swap about a decade and a half.

IMHO, the "Garand-and Thompson, along with BAR and 1919A6" buffett worked fine. Something similar would no doubt work well today (perhaps if they had used the FAL in .280 and the HK UMP-45 together?), but the preference at the top is for "all-purpose" multitask weapons.

[SJSAMPLE]

Both my Nosler and Hornady manuals use .45 ACP exclusively. My Winchester manual uses both. My internet searches overwhelmingly show .45 ACP as the primary nomenclature. I guess I'm just not up on all the latest fads.

[donozark]

Re:Post 32-You state the "M-14 is a pice of junk?" I have heard the M-14 castigated for it's weight. It's tendency to "waltz" on full-auto,etc. but never as a "piece of junk." Still in use today. It performed admirably in the hands of a trained professional in Somalia. Documented in Blackhawk down.

Also, at one time there was an article posted here re:the dismal results of M4A1 carbine in Afghanistan. It didn't reach out to 500 meters-ACOG or not. In fact story said Taliturds were mocking the US troops as they new they couldn't be hit.

And M-14 in this situation would have changed their mocking to writhing...