Saudi Sermon: Time for Christians and Jews to Convert to Islam

IMRA ^ | March 14, 2004 | FBIS

[Old Student]

You also stated that those very few "moderate" Muslims were apostates, and would be killed by all right-thinking Muslims. Go back and look at what you wrote. If that isn't what you meant, it is certainly not clear from what you actually wrote. Regardless, just because Nazism, which could be regarded as a Christian sect, (and is, by some) could not be moderate, in your opinion, doesn't mean that Islam can't be moderate. When most Muslims are moderate, Islam is moderate, whatever a bunch of nutcases who claim to be Muslims do.

I am a Mormon. People who practice polygamy in the US often claim to be "Fundamentalist Mormons." They are not, in fact, Mormons at all, even though they claim they are, because they do not follow our religion. Our 12th Article of Faith says "We believe in being subject to kings, presidents, rulers, and magistrates, in obeying, honoring, and sustaining the law." When the US passed laws forbidding plural marriage, our church dropped the practice. (They did not exist prior to that time.) The Articles of Faith were written by Joseph Smith, whom we believe is a prophet of God, and anyone who doesn't follow them isn't following the prophet, and is, therefore, not a Mormon. Quite a few Muslims find terrorism repugnant, and the indiscriminate killing of women and children is also condemned in the Koran, so any so-called Muslim who practices it is not, in fact, a Muslim, whatever they may call themselves. David Koresh thought of himself as a Christian; I'm afraid I'll have to leave judgment on that subject to God, but I will say that calling himself a Christian didn't make it so. Neither does Bin Laden calling himself a Muslim make him a Muslim.

I did refute your statements; most Muslims are moderate, and so Islam is moderate. The indisputable fact that some are truly NOT moderate doesn't make all of Islam immoderate, it just means that not everyone follows their faith faithfully. Some like to pick and choose the bits they will follow, like several types of "fundamentalists." Your position on the subject is the same sort of thing as Bin Laden's rant on the evil Crusaders. I have, no doubt, ancestors who participated in the Crusades. That doesn't make me a Crusader. For that matter, Saladin found some of the Crusaders decent and honest men, even if that wasn't true for all of them. So there is a long history of moderation in Islam. You and Bin Laden think alike in that respect, however, or you're not making yourself very clear. Care to try again?

[King Prout]

Most muslims are moderate, eh?
Cite your statistical evidence, please, listing all cases of moderate muslims exiling radicals from among their midst, turning in terrorists to the authorities, vocally and insistently and unequivocally condemning islamicism and islamicist terrorism - without padding their declamations with hedges and conditions, etc...
I'll wait.
I won't hold my breath.

Your statement "if most Muslims are moderate, then Islam is moderate" is crap. So long as their holy writ containd hundreds of exhortations to the faithful to actively go out and enslave and kill those who do not believe their creed, the religion which uses that text cannot be considered moderate. Muslims who ignore huge portions of the commandments of their Allah are, by the words of their own writ, condemned as apostates.
To paraphrase your statements: "Just because a moderate person calls himself a Muslim doesn't make it so."

[King Prout]

You also stated that those very few "moderate" Muslims were apostates, and would be killed by all right-thinking Muslims.

sigh. no. that is not what I said - read it again. never said anything of the sort.

let me see... the accusation of racism didn't cow me, so now you trot out the ol' misquote in the service of the Big Lie.

Are you some kind of Socialist? If you are, you are making a mistake common to creatures of that breed: you are trying to apply the tricks of viva-voce character assassination to a textual format debate. Doesn't work. Knock it off.

What I said, dear fellow, is that the korannic penalty for unrepentant apostasy is death. This is a fact. Read the Koran. That some Muslim (Egypt, Saudi, Yemen, Jordan, others) countries enforce this edict quite literally and exactly is also a fact.

I know you don't like facts, instead preferring specious allegory and ivory tower opinion, so I do not expect you to come to understand or accept the points I have made here. Nor shall I bother to speak with you again.

[Old Student]

I was there in 1983-1985, at Incirlik, and 1986-1987 at Pirinclik. Very different places, both were great tours. I was accompanied the first time, unaccompanied the second time. I got to the Lik just as the Embargo was winding down. Interesting place, and a lot of very nice people. You can't fake that kind of niceness for very long.

Gordon B. Hinckley is the President of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints. He is the current successor to Joseph Smith. As far as I know, he's not related to the shooter. If he was, I suspect things would have worked out much differently. He's a very good man.

[Old Student]

Gee, that's funny, my translation was produced IN Saudi Arabia, by the council of clerics there. I bought it when I was there for Gulf War I. When you don't have the facts, make them up. They also have an entire group who pass on the accuracy of hadith and sunnah.

http://www.islamonline.net/english/hadith/hadith.shtml

look at the entry for "Hadith Encyclopedia." They seem to mention multiple translations right there of the Quran.

http://www.sunnahonline.com/ilm/sunnah/0008.htm has the "science" of hadith explained.

As you say: Facts. Deal with them.

[philetus]

Gordon B. Hinckley is the President of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints.

Don't you call him the prophet?
Does he not claim that, alone , in a locked room, he converses, aloud, with God?

[PresbyRev]

I would add the observation that the Nazism could not be, by any student of history or religion, considered a Christian sect.

It was built on a foundation of paganism utterly hostile to Christianity. Hitler and other leaders expressed only antipathy for the Church. It would be a tool to be used and destroyed. The National Socialist machine coopted many clergymen and churches in Germany, but only by corrupting doctrinal truth. The Confessing Church movement gave testimony in the Barmen Declaration of Faith to the antichristian tendencies of Nazism and sealed that testimony in many cases with their blood.

Nazism and its expressions, such as the SS, were thoroughly steeped in paganism old and new, not Christianity.

[Just Lori]

The imam then reads this Koranic verse: "Say: "O People of the Book!


"O people of THE BOOK"?????? Hello???? I praise, worship, and (try my best to) follow GOD.....the ONLY God. The God of Abraham, Isaac, Moses, AND Muhammad! This guy must have a different god.

[Just Lori]

>Time for Christians and Jews to Convert to Islam
Time for Saudis to see The Passion.




Nah.... they still won't get it.

[Old Student]

"Moreover, I have known a goodly number of "moderate" Muslims. I say "moderate" in quotes because they would be considered apostates by their hardcore coreligionists (the overwhelming majority) and are condemned as apostates repeatedly throughout the Koran and Sunnah."

My apologies, you merely said they were apostates. You do know that apostates are supposed to be killed, however, according to the strictest interpretations of the Koran? You also stated that it is forbidden to interpret the Koran.

"What I said, dear fellow, is that the korannic penalty for unrepentant apostasy is death. This is a fact. Read the Koran. That some Muslim (Egypt, Saudi, Yemen, Jordan, others) countries enforce this edict quite literally and exactly is also a fact."

Hmm, yes, you do know it. So how is it not what you said?

"I know you don't like facts, instead preferring specious allegory and ivory tower opinion, so I do not expect you to come to understand or accept the points I have made here. Nor shall I bother to speak with you again."

Your use of "facts" seems to be as slippery as you accuse me of being, so you are right not to expect me to accept the points you are trying to make. I do understand them, and reject them, because they are wrong, as are many of your supposed facts.

"Are you some kind of Socialist? If you are, you are making a mistake common to creatures of that breed: you are trying to apply the tricks of viva-voce character assassination to a textual format debate. Doesn't work. Knock it off. " Tit for tat, I see. I called you racist, you call me socialist. No, I'm afraid I'm not trying to commit a character assassination; you need no help in displaying your character. I am, however, calling it as I see it. Perhaps it's not racism, as such, since it's directed at a religion rather than a skin-color, but it is the same sort of thing. Bigotry is bigotry. You should knock it off, yourself. Concentrate on the real problems, and the real facts.

My major problem with your arguments is the broad sweep of them. If you said much of what you said generally more specifically of, for example, Saudi Arabia, I'd probably agree with you. It is the broad-brush approach I disagree with. Most of Saudi Arabia is Wahhabi, after all, at least officially. Continue the discussion as you like, or not. You're still wrong, as you stated your arguments.

[Just Lori]

"I heartily urinate on 'islamist instruction'. Let their followers come to me, to reap the full measure of their reward. I promise to kill each and every one of them with no less than a .357 magnum round if at all possible."

It very well may come to that.



No no......now wait JUST a minute! Only criminals are allowed to have guns!

[narses]

Convert, or die says the Koran.

[Just Lori]

Quite a few Muslims find terrorism repugnant, and the indiscriminate killing of women and children is also condemned in the Koran, so any so-called Muslim who practices it is not, in fact, a Muslim, whatever they may call themselves.


We are at war with the terrorists, not the Muslim faith. These people seek to kill anyone and everyone who does not fall in line with their ideas. Don't you think it a bit strange that Muslim leaders (free, in this country at least) across this land are not shouting condemnations from the rooftops against those who commit murder in the name of their holy religion? Why are they so silent?

[Old Student]

"I would add the observation that the Nazism could not be, by any student of history or religion, considered a Christian sect."


I beg to differ, as National Socialism was rooted in Christianity. Lutheranism, predominately, and as you said, corrupted. Terribly corrupted, in fact, and with many of the worst aspects of several forms of paganism grafted in, while the best features were supressed. If you were to ask the Catholics, so is Anglicanism, with perhaps some truth to it. If you ask the Anglicans, so was puritanism, for that matter, and also with some truth to it. In every age and time there have been some who stood for what they thought of as purity, and goodness, who were not good examples of what they claimed to support. The Nazis are very firmly among those. There are some Muslims who bear strong resemblence to the Nazis. Your church has had it's share, too. We've had them in my church, as well. My point was, and is, that all groups have some who actually follow their own teachings, and some who twist and rend them, for some advantage in this world. No human group is perfect.

Some of the aspects of Islam that non-Muslims find most outrageous are those that are adopted from Christianity and Judaism, and then changed. One could properly say warped, if you are a true believer in either of those religions, rather than Islam. Christ was a prophet, not the Son of God, as I know him to be, and from your screen-name, expect you to believe as well. Abraham was to sacrifice Ishmael, rather than Isaac, for the Jews. Lots of others, as well. What the Nazis did was warp some Christian teachings, and shred some others.

Much of modern Christianity is steeped in paganism for that matter. Christmas trees, Yule logs, just to name a couple. There is nothing wrong with adapting local custom to a new purpose, as long as you aren't totally violating the tenets of your faith. What the Nazis did was a total violation of the Christian faith, but it was BASED in that faith, too. Jesus sacrificed himself for our sins, ending the need for blood sacrifices. The Holocaust could be considered a reintroduction of blood sacrifice for purposes I am certain Christ would not have approved of. I am a student of history, for that matter, and consider myself a serious student. Nazism could be considered a Christian sect. It was so terrible an example of what can go wrong in a sect as to cause some to deny it, but the facts still stand.

I'm a Mormon, now. My stepdad, a Baptist minister, felt about Mormons much the way you seem to feel about Nazis. They couldn't possibly be Christians. And as far as the Nazis are concered, I'd have to agree that they aren't, but that doesn't mean that they can't be considered such by some.

Are you familiar with John Chivington? He was a Methodist minister who became a Colonel in the US Army.He was a hero in the Civil War. He's also the one who led the massacre at Sand Creek. Not a good example of a Christian. Neither was Hitler. It is possible to say Hitler wasn't a Christian. There are rumors that he was Jewish, or part Jewish. Kind of hard to tell, at this late date. Chivington WAS a Christian. Something happened to him to cause him to forget what he once believed. Both are good examples of what can happen when someone who should know better forgets what they are supposed to be doing.

[Old Student]

"We are at war with the terrorists, not the Muslim faith. These people seek to kill anyone and everyone who does not fall in line with their ideas. Don't you think it a bit strange that Muslim leaders (free, in this country at least) across this land are not shouting condemnations from the rooftops against those who commit murder in the name of their holy religion? Why are they so silent?"

Some of the folks on FR can't seem to make that distinction. They think anyone who is a Muslim is also a terrorist, and should be killed. There are Muslim leaders in this country who have condemned the terrorists. You can find them on the internet, if you look hard enough.

http://www.ijtihad.org/debate.htm Dr. Khan is one of them. There aren't enough, though, and that is a fact. One reason for that fact, is, I think, that much of the "missionary effort" for Islam is being funded by the Saudis. They are Wahhabi, with is one of the more strict sects, and could properly be deemed "islamofacist." Here I'm expressing my personal opinion. I didn't really like the Saudis. I found the Turks much more reasonable and easy to talk with about religion. Some of my friends had opposite experiences. I liked the more secular outlook of the Turks. They take their religion seriously, but with a shot of Raki on the side. What I mean by that is that Turks generally don't get too serious about religion. Which causes the Saudis to consider them apostate. They believe strongly in their faith, but are willing to let others have other beliefs. There are exceptions, of course, as for any other people.

As for many of the Muslims here in America, I believe they're afraid of the islamofacists. Some of the stricter sects, like the Wahhabi, tend to kill people who they consider apostates. They haven't tried it with the Turks because no one over there is quite that crazy. The Turks know all about opening cans of WhoopAss. They make really bad enemies. Muslims here are considerably more isolated, and as I said, many of the Imams here were funded by the Saudis. Some of them are doing so, whatever the risk. Some need to grow a spine. You may have noticed that the media don't seem to carry stories like that, either. I don't believe it's because they aren't there, but because they don't sell papers or beer. Controversy is what sells.

[Old Student]

"Cite your statistical evidence, please, listing all cases of moderate muslims exiling radicals from among their midst, turning in terrorists to the authorities, vocally and insistently and unequivocally condemning islamicism and islamicist terrorism - without padding their declamations with hedges and conditions, etc."

The past several months in Iraq. Search the threads here on FR.

[Old Student]

Yes, we call him "The Prophet, Seer, and Revelator."

No, he doesn't claim to do it alone in a locked room. He does it in concert with his first and second counselors. It is called prayer. Sometimes he does it in public, in front of cameras connecting him with all the members of the church. We call those "General Conferences." The next one is in April.

http://www.lds.org/ should tell you everything you want to know about us, and what we believe. Our complete scriptures are posted on the site, as well as explanations and our history.

[Petronski]

Saudi Sermon: Time for Christians and Jews to Convert to Islam

[AmericanVictory]

Let us say it again. Go around big oil and oil services companies, take away the oil weapon through supporting our project to create oil independence through entrepreneurship and then see how these "preachers" have the funds to spread their filthy, evil hatred. Leadership anyone?

[jpsb]

What is the difference? Jew/Levite.