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To: King Prout
You also stated that those very few "moderate" Muslims were apostates, and would be killed by all right-thinking Muslims. Go back and look at what you wrote. If that isn't what you meant, it is certainly not clear from what you actually wrote. Regardless, just because Nazism, which could be regarded as a Christian sect, (and is, by some) could not be moderate, in your opinion, doesn't mean that Islam can't be moderate. When most Muslims are moderate, Islam is moderate, whatever a bunch of nutcases who claim to be Muslims do.

I am a Mormon. People who practice polygamy in the US often claim to be "Fundamentalist Mormons." They are not, in fact, Mormons at all, even though they claim they are, because they do not follow our religion. Our 12th Article of Faith says "We believe in being subject to kings, presidents, rulers, and magistrates, in obeying, honoring, and sustaining the law." When the US passed laws forbidding plural marriage, our church dropped the practice. (They did not exist prior to that time.) The Articles of Faith were written by Joseph Smith, whom we believe is a prophet of God, and anyone who doesn't follow them isn't following the prophet, and is, therefore, not a Mormon. Quite a few Muslims find terrorism repugnant, and the indiscriminate killing of women and children is also condemned in the Koran, so any so-called Muslim who practices it is not, in fact, a Muslim, whatever they may call themselves. David Koresh thought of himself as a Christian; I'm afraid I'll have to leave judgment on that subject to God, but I will say that calling himself a Christian didn't make it so. Neither does Bin Laden calling himself a Muslim make him a Muslim.

I did refute your statements; most Muslims are moderate, and so Islam is moderate. The indisputable fact that some are truly NOT moderate doesn't make all of Islam immoderate, it just means that not everyone follows their faith faithfully. Some like to pick and choose the bits they will follow, like several types of "fundamentalists." Your position on the subject is the same sort of thing as Bin Laden's rant on the evil Crusaders. I have, no doubt, ancestors who participated in the Crusades. That doesn't make me a Crusader. For that matter, Saladin found some of the Crusaders decent and honest men, even if that wasn't true for all of them. So there is a long history of moderation in Islam. You and Bin Laden think alike in that respect, however, or you're not making yourself very clear. Care to try again?
101 posted on 03/15/2004 7:57:43 PM PST by Old Student (WRM, MSgt, USAF (Ret.))
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To: Old Student
Most muslims are moderate, eh?
Cite your statistical evidence, please, listing all cases of moderate muslims exiling radicals from among their midst, turning in terrorists to the authorities, vocally and insistently and unequivocally condemning islamicism and islamicist terrorism - without padding their declamations with hedges and conditions, etc...
I'll wait.
I won't hold my breath.

Your statement "if most Muslims are moderate, then Islam is moderate" is crap. So long as their holy writ containd hundreds of exhortations to the faithful to actively go out and enslave and kill those who do not believe their creed, the religion which uses that text cannot be considered moderate. Muslims who ignore huge portions of the commandments of their Allah are, by the words of their own writ, condemned as apostates.
To paraphrase your statements: "Just because a moderate person calls himself a Muslim doesn't make it so."
102 posted on 03/15/2004 8:07:48 PM PST by King Prout (You may disagree with what I have to say... but I will defend to YOUR death MY right to say it.)
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To: Old Student
You also stated that those very few "moderate" Muslims were apostates, and would be killed by all right-thinking Muslims.

sigh. no. that is not what I said - read it again. never said anything of the sort.

let me see... the accusation of racism didn't cow me, so now you trot out the ol' misquote in the service of the Big Lie.

Are you some kind of Socialist? If you are, you are making a mistake common to creatures of that breed: you are trying to apply the tricks of viva-voce character assassination to a textual format debate. Doesn't work. Knock it off.

What I said, dear fellow, is that the korannic penalty for unrepentant apostasy is death. This is a fact. Read the Koran. That some Muslim (Egypt, Saudi, Yemen, Jordan, others) countries enforce this edict quite literally and exactly is also a fact.

I know you don't like facts, instead preferring specious allegory and ivory tower opinion, so I do not expect you to come to understand or accept the points I have made here. Nor shall I bother to speak with you again.

103 posted on 03/15/2004 8:18:39 PM PST by King Prout (You may disagree with what I have to say... but I will defend to YOUR death MY right to say it.)
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To: Old Student
I would add the observation that the Nazism could not be, by any student of history or religion, considered a Christian sect.

It was built on a foundation of paganism utterly hostile to Christianity. Hitler and other leaders expressed only antipathy for the Church. It would be a tool to be used and destroyed. The National Socialist machine coopted many clergymen and churches in Germany, but only by corrupting doctrinal truth. The Confessing Church movement gave testimony in the Barmen Declaration of Faith to the antichristian tendencies of Nazism and sealed that testimony in many cases with their blood.

Nazism and its expressions, such as the SS, were thoroughly steeped in paganism old and new, not Christianity.
107 posted on 03/15/2004 9:02:20 PM PST by PresbyRev (Why do the heathen rage and the people imagine a vain thing?)
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To: Old Student
Quite a few Muslims find terrorism repugnant, and the indiscriminate killing of women and children is also condemned in the Koran, so any so-called Muslim who practices it is not, in fact, a Muslim, whatever they may call themselves.


We are at war with the terrorists, not the Muslim faith. These people seek to kill anyone and everyone who does not fall in line with their ideas. Don't you think it a bit strange that Muslim leaders (free, in this country at least) across this land are not shouting condemnations from the rooftops against those who commit murder in the name of their holy religion? Why are they so silent?
113 posted on 03/15/2004 9:38:10 PM PST by Just Lori (I am continually amazed)
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