Posted on 03/04/2004 10:24:16 PM PST by churchillbuff
Edited on 03/05/2004 10:48:45 AM PST by Admin Moderator. [history]
Gibson's Blood Libel
By Charles Krauthammer Friday, March 5, 2004; Page A23
Every people has its story. Every people has the right to its story. And every people has a responsibility for its story. ...[snip]
Christians have their story too: the crucifixion and resurrection of Christ. Why is this story different from other stories? Because it is not a family affair of coreligionists. If it were, few people outside the circle of believers would be concerned about it. This particular story involves other people. With the notable exception of a few Romans, these people are Jews. And in the story, they come off rather badly.
Because of that peculiarity, the crucifixion is not just a story; it is a story with its own story -- a history of centuries of relentless, and at times savage, persecution of Jews in Christian lands. This history is what moved Vatican II, in a noble act of theological reflection, to decree in 1965 that the Passion of Christ should henceforth be understood with great care so as to unteach the lesson that had been taught for almost two millennia: that the Jews were Christ killers.
(Excerpt) Read more at washingtonpost.com ...
And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.
Some of the pictures that circled the net during the beginning of latest Iraq war showing Hussein's 'ways' were absolutely horrifying.
The accounts of the human beings placed in shredders are beyond my capacity to fully absorb.
I so hope we (the US) have the forsight and courage to prop up the fledgling democracy movement in Iran, and to abide by our word to the Kurds.
I'll be very disappointed if these articles of honor are transgressed, because it can't always be about strategy, at some point, especially when you are trying to lead by example, you cannot compromise, no matter what that costs.
So to officers. So do Republicans. So do those with graduate degrees. Envy leads to hatred.
As an outsider looking at your posts I get the impression you have studied some formula regarding bits and pieces of scripture. I am fully aware of many teachers who desire to have some sort of exclusive angle in regard to scripture interpretation. What I have noticed is that followers of these types of teachers (And this includes seminary students who find a professor that has strong leadership skills and is very persuasive) to ignore the whole counsel of God. Setting aside the individual truths that God wishes to reveal to us as individuals, to test it by our formula.
The downfall of using certain passages to establish a doctrine that you then try to force all other scriptures to comply with, is that one begins to ignore the overall context of the scriptures in the big picture.
Christ said I have foretold you all things, seems to me ALL is ALL!
All of what Christ foretold takes human beings a lifetime to assimilate, and we are still incapable of comprehending the deepest truths of scripture, for we see Him through a glass darkly.
Job 42:1-8
1 Then Job answered the LORD, and said,
2 I know that thou canst do every thing, and that no thought can be withholden from thee.
3 Who is he that hideth counsel without knowledge? therefore have I uttered that I understood not; things too wonderful for me, which I knew not.
4 Hear, I beseech thee, and I will speak: I will demand of thee, and declare thou unto me.
5 I have heard of thee by the hearing of the ear: but now mine eye seeth thee.
6 Wherefore I abhor myself, and repent in dust and ashes.
7 And it was so, that after the LORD had spoken these words unto Job, the LORD said to Eliphaz the Temanite, My wrath is kindled against thee, and against thy two friends: for ye have not spoken of me the thing that is right, as my servant Job hath.
8 Therefore take unto you now seven bullocks and seven rams, and go to my servant Job, and offer up for yourselves a burnt offering; and my servant Job shall pray for you: for him will I accept: lest I deal with you after your folly, in that ye have not spoken of me the thing which is right, like my servant Job.
God tells us how to approach understanding Him in the above passage. With humility and respect. Because, as Christians, we have reestablished fellowship with the God we can learn the truths revealed in scripture. However we must be careful not to put God in a box as Job's friends did.
The truths of God are inexhaustible, and in our unglorified bodies none of us have a capacity for them all. We should cherish the truths God chooses to reveal to us through our diligence in not only study, but also prayer.
Keep setting up these straw men, and I'll keep knocking them down.
First, have you actually read my post? It clearly says that I believe that upwards of 6 million Jews were killed by the Nazis. And while you're re-reading, could you kindly point out where I said that anti-semitism (a form of racial hatred)is not a sin? Racial hatred or the mere sense of racial superiority is directly condemned by God.
As I said before, to any rational mind, Holocaust denial or revisionism is: "idiocy, or dangerous idiocy". But being in error is not the same as sin. Only if it were a conscious and deliberate decision to minimize the Holocaust becuase of malice toward the Jews-- only then would it rise to the level of sin.
Are there people who meet that standard? Sure. Is Hutton Gibson one of them? I don't think so.
In any case, does it really matter whether 4,5, or 6 million Jews were systematically murdered by the Nazis. Does it make the Nazis any less evil?
You state: I am not your bro
I apologize. I was under the mistaken impression that the sons and daughters of Adam were brothers and sisters. Would you prefer Cousin, then?
Yes
As I said before, to any rational mind, Holocaust denial or revisionism is: "idiocy, or dangerous idiocy". But being in error is not the same as sin. Only if it were a conscious and deliberate decision to minimize the Holocaust becuase of malice toward the Jews-- only then would it rise to the level of sin. Are there people who meet that standard? Sure. Is Hutton Gibson one of them? I don't think so.
We do not read this from the same book.
In any case, does it really matter whether 4,5, or 6 million Jews were systematically murdered by the Nazis. Does it make the Nazis any less evil?
It does not make the Nazis any less evil. Holocause Denial and Revisionism is used to try to make the Nazis appear less evil. If Mel Gibson were making a movie about it he would show the adversary involved in it plotting a sequel to the Holocaust.
You state: I am not your bro. I apologize. I was under the mistaken impression that the sons and daughters of Adam were brothers and sisters. Would you prefer Cousin, then?
You need not apologize. I do not accept the premises of Islam. If you are a friend to Israel and the Jewish people I will call you sadiqi. It would be more natural than Ibn Am or Ibn Hal.
Are you such a friend ?
Holocaust Denial and Revisionism are used
Eze 37:15
15 The word of the LORD came again unto me, saying,
16Moreover, thou son of man, take thee one stick, and write upon it, For Judah, and for the children of Israel his companions: then take another stick, and write upon it, For Joseph, the stick of Ephraim, and for all the house of Israel his companions:
17 And join them one to another into one stick; and they shall become one in thine hand.
18 And when the children of thy people shall speak unto thee, saying, Wilt thou not show us what thou meanest by these?
19 Say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I will take the stick of Joseph, which is in the hand of Ephraim, and the tribes of Israel his fellows, and will put them with him, even with the stick of Judah, and make them one stick, and they shall be one in mine hand.
20 And the sticks whereon thou writest shall be in thine hand before their eyes.
21 And say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I will take the children of Israel from among the heathen, whither they be gone, and will gather them on every side, and bring them into their own land:
22 And I will make them one nation in the land upon the mountains of Israel; and one king shall be king to them all: and they shall be no more two nations, neither shall they be divided into two kingdoms any more at all:
23 Neither shall they defile themselves any more with their idols, nor with their detestable things, nor with any of their transgressions: but I will save them out of all their dwellingplaces, wherein they have sinned, and will cleanse them: so shall they be my people, and I will be their God.
I believe the above prophecy is fullfilled and we could experience the rapture of the gentile church any day now. Currently Israel is in postition for the rebuilding of the temple with the peace accord established between Jew and Muslim by the anti-christ. Hello twelve tribes in Israel revealed in Chapter seven of Revelation and Ezekial 37:23.
1. Should Gibson have condemned his father publicly? I say no, and you say yes. We have been through that a few times, and I think you know why from a moral perspective I feel that is unacceptable.
2. Is Holocaust denial/revisionism a sin? You say it always is. I say that it is ignorance and stupdity but not a sin. Lack of knowledge or facts or an unconscious error cannot be a sin. A just God would not deem it so. But when this denial is made consciously to trivialize the suffering of the Jews, then it does rise to the level of sin.
You say that our difference here is because we don't read from the same book. Well, I have read your Book, too, and while I am no scholar, it seems to me that God is not unjust and would not condemn a man for mere ignorance of the facts.
3. You say that you do not accept the premises of Islam. That's fine. But you do understand that the fundamental premise of Islam is that there is one supreme deity who created the universe and sent prophets to be his signs?
Do you disagree with that as a Jew?
Another fundamental premise is that all men are brothers and equal in the eyes of God, separated by the good they do in the time alotted. Is this not a premise of the Old Testament which describes Man as the sons of Adam to be judged for their deeds.
4. Finally, you close by saying "If you are a friend to Israel and the Jewish people I will call you sadiqi".
First, I do not choose nations for friends, I choose men and women, be they Christian, Muslim, or Jew. Second, in Arabic, "sadiq" means truthful. I would not be truthful if I told you that I am a friend to the modern state of Israel. My sympathies are obviously on the other side of that one. But that does not mean I would tolerate malignant injustice towards a Jew-- or anyone else.
It certainly does not mean that I could glory in the murder of innocents, even enemy innocents, whose lives are claimed by murderering beasts who dare to fly the banner of my ancient fathers.
So, maybe I'm not a friend to Israel, but I'm a pretty good friend and business partner to many American Jews.
Israel Shamir may be a gifted social critic but he makes the same mistake that so many people do today--dividing one number by another and calling it a percentage. To make a percentage out of a ratio, you have to multiply it by 100. Thus 6 out of 13,000 is .04%, not .0004%.
All that being said, the blood of American soldiers must not go to waste. The sacrifices our people have made must bear the fruits of liberty for the Iraqi people.
Now, that we're there, we've got to finish it. If we walk away after all this... I don't even want to imagine the consequences.
The Paleoconservatives and older Bush hands like Baker and Scowcroft were right about a lot of their concerns with this enterprise. But now, I guess all of us have to pray real hard that this ends well.
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