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To: JmyBryan
Excepting the small fact that early Christians believed it ... duh!

The early Christians also believed Christ was coming back within their lifetimes.

I don't see what difference it makes whether there were nails; the gospels do not mention nails.

Crucifixion could take days. Christ was weakened from the scourging, and had lost blood, so his death came fairly quickly.

To add to the humiliation, it was also fairly common to completely strip the person who was to be crucifed. There's no reason to think Christ was spared this insult.

And the Romans did not take the bodies down after death. If a family member didn't remove the body, it simply hung on the cross, for vultures and other vermin to pick at.

15 posted on 02/19/2004 3:56:21 PM PST by sinkspur (Adopt a shelter dog or cat! You'll save one life, and maybe two!)
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To: sinkspur
From post 11:

The other disciples therefore said to him, "We have seen the Lord." So he said to them, "Unless I see in His hands the print of the nails, and put my finger into the print of the nails, and put my hand into His side, I will not believe." And after eight days His disciples were again inside, and Thomas with them. Jesus came, the doors being shut, and stood in the midst, and said, "Peace to you!" Then He said to Thomas, "Reach your finger here, and look at My hands; and reach your hand here, and put it into My side. Do not be unbelieving, but believing." And Thomas answered and said to Him, "My Lord and my God!"

John 20:25-27
23 posted on 02/19/2004 3:59:09 PM PST by sharktrager (The last rebel without a cause in a world full of causes without a rebel.)
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To: sinkspur
I don't see what difference it makes whether there were nails; the gospels do not mention nails.

They don't mention nails, but they seem to be understood. As in John 20:27 where Jesus told Thomas: "Reach your finger here, and look at My hands; and reach your hand here and put it into My side..."

The Apostle Paul understood it as well: "...and He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross." Colossians 2:14b

The whole "argument" is nothing but an attempt, as it has been down through history, to make Jesus & Christianity look false. Hasn't worked, has it?

41 posted on 02/19/2004 4:06:56 PM PST by madison10
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To: sinkspur
I don't see what difference it makes whether there were nails; the gospels do not mention nails.

Read John Chapter 20. The pertinent quote is on this page. Jesus was nailed to the cross.

43 posted on 02/19/2004 4:09:11 PM PST by Clintons a commie
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To: sinkspur
the gospels do not mention nails.

"One of the twelve disciples Thomas (called the Twin), was not with them when Jesus came. So the other disciples told him, "We have seen the Lord!" Thomas said to them, "Unless I see the scars of the nails in his hands and put my finger on those scars and my hand in his side, I will not believe." John 20:24-25 (GNT)

44 posted on 02/19/2004 4:09:13 PM PST by Republican Wildcat
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To: sinkspur
I don't see what difference it makes whether there were nails; the gospels do not mention nails.

Yes, they do. John 20:24 says very clearly that Jesus was nailed through the "hands" (which could also mean that he was nailed through what we would call the wrist).

The technique was probably to nail through the space between the forearm bones next to the wrist in such a way as to sever the nerves (resulting in intense, shooting pain when the victim tried to breathe) but keep the major vessels intact (so the victim didn't bleed to death quickly).

45 posted on 02/19/2004 4:09:18 PM PST by Campion
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To: sinkspur
"... the gospels do not mention nails."

John 20:25-27

25 The other disciples therefore said to him: We have seen the Lord. But he said to them: Except I shall see in his hands the print of the nails and put my finger into the place of the nails and put my hand into his side, I will not believe.

26 And after eight days, again his disciples were within, and Thomas with them. Jesus cometh, the doors being shut, and stood in the midst and said: Peace be to you.

27 Then He said to Thomas: Put in thy finger hither and see my hands. And bring hither the hand and put it into my side. And be not faithless, but believing.
51 posted on 02/19/2004 4:15:07 PM PST by Petronski (John Kerry looks like . . . like . . . weakness.)
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To: sinkspur
And what did He show Thomas to prove who He was? Ropeburns?
69 posted on 02/19/2004 4:38:27 PM PST by Guillermo (It's tough being a Miami Dolphins fan)
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To: sinkspur
And the Romans did not take the bodies down after death. If a family member didn't remove the body, it simply hung on the cross, for vultures and other vermin to pick at.

There is an interesting contemporary Roman literary source for this. Petronius, the master of revels for Nero, wrote "The Satyricon," sometimes considered the first novel. Among other stories and incidents, Petronius describes a Roman soldier who was detailed to guard the corpse of a crucified criminal, to keep the family from taking the body and burying it. The widow of another dead man (the place of crucifixion is a cemetery) loudly mourns his death nearby until the soldier convinces her to live and seduces her. They enjoy each other's company until the family of the dead criminal notice the watch is loosely kept and steal his body away. The soldier is ready to kill himself since the penalty for shirking his duty is death. His new lover practically points out that her dead husband's body will do just as well. They mount it in his place and the neighbors wondered how a dead man managed to climb the cross.

The story is seen as an early slam at Christians. I think it is proof of how even by Nero's time, the facts of Jesus' crucifixion and resurrection were already well known at Rome. The story is also a good source of crucification information.

Gutenberg text of "The Satyricon" is at http://onlinebooks.library.upenn.edu/webbin/gutbook/lookup?num=5611

85 posted on 02/19/2004 5:55:29 PM PST by Martin Tell (I will not be terrified or Kerrified.)
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To: sinkspur
The Romans also knew that breaking the legs of the person being crucified accelerated death since broken legs could not support any weight. It was common practice for Roman magistrates showing "mercy" to have the legs of those being crucified broken to minimize the suffering.

The Romans did not intend for Jesus to die quickly, or they would have broken his legs. Scourging was another common form of punishment used by the Romans. The pain inflicted by scourging, and its muscle destroying after effects, was their most severe punishment short of death, and infections often led to death. It is reasonable to conclude that the Romans wanted Jesus to suffer as much as possible.
99 posted on 02/19/2004 8:19:22 PM PST by Poodlebrain
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To: sinkspur
And the Romans did not take the bodies down after death. If a family member didn't remove the body, it simply hung on the cross, for vultures and other vermin to pick at.

This is wrong. The stipes (uprights) were reused... often. Executions were sometimes weekly and sometimes daily... and the stipes were kept in place. The condemned was nailed or tied to the patibulum (the cross piece) and then lifted onto the stipes. The bodies were taken down and tossed into a pit so the crosses could be reused.

The error that Mel makes is in having Jesus carry the entire cross, stipes and patibulum. Most likely the condemned men carried only the patibulum.

107 posted on 02/19/2004 9:36:02 PM PST by Swordmaker (This tagline shut down for renovations and repairs. Re-open June of 2001.)
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