PHI HARMONICS IN FASTER-THAN-LIGHT QUANTUM TUNNELLING!

By Ananda, ATON Institute, Norway. ^ | FR Post 2-20-2004 | Editorial Staff

[vannrox]

With the global media's announcement this year of faster-than-light signalling, commencing in the Scientific American September issue's reportage, as well as their announcement of the multidimensional universe, to be tested in 2005, at the CERN particle accelerator in Switzerland, there appears to be a revolution at hand, amidst mainstream discoveries. A revolution that began some 7 years earlier, and that could be set to shake the very foundation of what we call reality, depending on further research.

In this article, we look at the apparent PHI, or golden number harmonics, that are described in some of these superluminal experiments. Their appearence here may yield extreme significance, in a vast array of fields, from charting the universe, it matrix and laws, and beyond, all the way to the personal including biofeedback enhancement in superlearning techniques and whole body intelligence.

However, this research began to receive attention when the following obscure science paper highlighted their first glimpse of superluminality:

 

"Our results were consistent with the group delay predictions, and also with Buttiker's proposed Larmor time, but not with the "semiclassical" time. The measured times exceeded the predictions by approximately 0.5 fs [femto seconds], but this result was at the borderline of statistical significance, and not discussed. Since then, further data taken at various angles of incidence have continued to show a discrepancy, ranging from an excess of 0.5 fs near normal incidence to a decit of over 1 fs at large angles of incidence."

­Sub-femtosecond determination of transmission delay times for a dielectric mirror (photonic bandgap) as a function of angle of incidence. Aephraim M. Steinberg and Raymond Y. Chiao Department of Physics, U.C. Berkeley, Berkeley, CA 94720, Internet: aephraim@physics.berkeley.edu. Quant- ph/ 9501013 16 Jan 95. (Preprint quant-ph/9501013; Received Phys. Rev. 17 August, 1994), page 2

 

During the mid 1990s the European media highlighted a potential science shattering discovery, faster-than-light signalling of Mozart's 40th Symphony. Our specialised magazine Vortexijah (issue 4/5, Autumn 1994) also reported on this odd finding, which was stated to be a "failure in causality", Einstein's version of Karma, or cause and effect, which states that nothing goes faster than the speed of light.

Amidst this European media spur, was a 1995 article in the conservative foundation stone news paper of Germany, de Zeit, which published this as a headline story entitled: "Mozart's Symphony #40 Causes Breakdown In Modern Physics."

We were given a clipping, without the date, which was approximately June 1995. Here are some excerpts translated into English:

"Koeln physics professor Guenther Nimtz, used a hollow metal pipe, called a wave transducer. On the end of the Ca. 20 cm long metal pipe a section of Mozart's Symphony #40 became audible through an amplifier. Not digital quality, but good enough for radio. There was a speed change of the waves that were transduced. This tunnel effect was 4.7 x C [c = speed of light]. The lengths of the microwaves that Nimtz chose were actually too wide for the wave transducer. But still some of them found their way through the other side to the amplifier. In the tunnel occurrence the waves do not seem to require any time. Whereas outside the tunnel the waves were well behaving enough to follow the classical laws and travel at the speed of light. Mozart's symphony has information content, Nimtz contends."

 

Such an almost unbelievable news item, herein without a date, however was based on actual accepted research. Here I quote Dr. Raymond Chiao's brief summary of these experiments:

"Other experiments confirming the superluminality of tunnelling have been performed in Cologne, Florence, and Vienna [14, 15, 16]. The Cologne and Florence groups performed microwave experiments, and the Vienna group performed a femtosecond laser experiment. All these groups have confirmed the Hartman effect. One of these groups [17] has claimed to have sent Mozart's 40th symphony at a speed of 4:7c through a microwave tunnel barrier 114 mm long consisting of a periodic dielectric structure similar to our dielectric mirror."

--Quantum Nonlocality in Two-Photon Raymond Y. Chiao , Paul G. Kwiat z and Aephraim M. Steinberg. Department of Physics, University of California, Berkeley, CA 94720-7300, December 21, 1994). Pp 10.

We will return to the PHI significance of this above figure a little further ahead.

As I have been speaking about this experiment and others that emerged from other universities, over the years, I mentioned the possibility that we could be enabled to model or understand the 'high dimensions' through which the signal may have transversed, by the Golden Mean or PHI.

I related, over the years, that PHI would be the first localised form of the virtual, and in making cosmological models that are post-infinite maps. Mentioning that PHI would be the best model of coherence, or highest order, that is the simplest pathway by which the nature of this dimension could translate, or mirror in personification, the coherent pathways of those vacuum hyperspaces, even though they may be post-PHI therein. Never-the-less in our localised spatial dimension, PHI would be the simplest constant which would personify the unique signals of these N-spaces. Naturally I was influenced in making such above cosmological speculative models, by basic material on PHI by colleagues.

My colleague Daniel Winter, (who studied with the later Buckminster Fuller, and is an expert on sacred geometry, in the sense of being a public hero in exposing and breaking down into more understandable terms for the layman, many arcane sacred geometrical principles and relationships, which the public at large has never been exposed to before), predicted now, for several years, that faster-than-light signals would be found to travel in the PHI ratios.

His own modelling bore this out. He also has another angle, logic and theory for this, whereby the faster-than-light dimensions are domains of pure fractal implosion, in every direction the greater superluminal harmonics to infinity. This particular article has come into formation, when Dan asked me for references upon my mentioning PHI harmonics in superluminal tunnelling, whilst we were lecturing together in SION, Switzerland, September 2000.

My own modelling herein is perhaps in far more controversial ground, whereby we explore Virtual Field Intergeometries, and Monatomic element's Meisner Field transforms into full superconductive fusion -- a new and very controversial field as of yet (some animated models of intergeometrical monatomic elements at Intergeometry). If such Virtual and monatomic intergeometries were in localised fields, some of these could be considered as quantum decoherence, in their effect, except with the unique attributes of 8 hz phase-conjugation, that Dr. Andrija Puharich discovered in the late 1970s, and patented in his Protocommunication II.

Dr. Chiao, however, does indicate that the superluminal transportation does involve decoherence of the local photons as well:

"The superluminality can be understood by thinking of the low transmission through our barrier as arising from destructive interference between waves which have spent different lengths of time in the barrier. "

--tunnelling Times and Superluminality: a Tutorial. Raymond Y. Chiao. Dept. of Physics, Univ. of California. Berkeley, CA 94720-7300, U. S. A. November 6, 1998. Pp 10.

 

Although, in the monatomic intergeometries, any photon group, would be infrared coherent laser, which in increased critical thermal exposures, phase-cancel each other out, this also became apparent in the faster-than-light experiments listed in the September 2000, issue of the Scientific American entitled "Unlimited Light", pp 18:

"The researchers used a combination of laser beams to create an usual region of 'anomalous dispersion' in the six centimeters of cesium gas, where the velocity of light is higher for higher frequencies of light (ordinarily higher frequencies mean lower speeds).

"This region causes the pulse to 're-phase,' according to Wang. The light pulse, all of whose constituent wavelengths overlap constructively, loses its phase alignment as it propagates toward the cell, causing the waves to cancel one another out. "

Hence, what we have modelled with Vortexijah phase-conjugation models, and further intergeometrical explorations, here appear to be an essential part in the superluminal transmission of light, at least on the quantum level. But much more significant confirmations on our Vortexijah models on a more concrete level, have come in, from the American Scientist, in terms of superconduction experiments (which we will report on elsewhere).

This article is not intended to discuss this particle issue of our Intergeometry models any further, and my colleague Dan Winter's models can be found on his web site. I came into writing this piece, in the process of supplying my colleague with the references to the superluminal speeds related to PHI.

This itself is an exciting level of discovery, which is destined to produce a wide array of theories to describe them, classical and mainstream, to the fringe and daring novel visionary science explorations, for those who do not have a position with a mainstream university to compensate exploration and novelty for.

 

SUPERLUMINOSITY YIELDS PHI

Now what of Dr. Nimtz reported signalling of microwaves to come out 4.7 times faster than light tuned in Mozart? This is an interesting figure, considering that the sacred Pythagorean constant PHI, figures into this number. PHI is generally generalised as 1.618 or 0.618. When we add onto of 1.618 five times 0.618 (3.09), the result is 4.7 (4.708 to be precise). Mozart yielded an astounding harmonic sequence, back in 1995.

Other experiments were then enabled which used other devices, and which lead to similar results:

"Experiments have shown that individual photons penetrate an optical tunnel barrier with an effective group velocity considerably greater than the vacuum speed of light. The experiments were conducted with a two-photon parametric down-conversion light source, which produced correlated, but random, emissions of photon pairs. The two photons of a given pair were emitted in slightly different directions so that one photon passed through the tunnel barrier, while the other photon passed through the vacuum. The time delay for the tunnelling photon relative to its twin was measured by adjusting the path length difference between the two photons in a Hong-Ou-Mandel interferometer, in order to achieve coincidence detection. We found that the photon transit time through the barrier was smaller than the twin photon's transit time through an equal distance in vacuum, indicating that the process of tunnelling in quantum mechanics is superluminal. Various conflicting theories of tunnelling times are compared with experiment."

"tunnelling, the quantum mechanical process by which a particle can penetrate a classically forbidden region of space, is one of the most mysterious phenomena of quantum mechanics. Yet it is one of the most basic and important processes in Nature, without which we could not even exist, for tunnelling is involved in the very rst step of the nuclear reaction, p +p ! d +e +e, which powers the Sun, the source of energy for life on the Earth."

--Tunnelling Times and Superluminality: a Tutorial. Raymond Y. Chiao. Dept. of Physics, Univ. of California. Berkeley, CA 94720-7300, U. S. A. November 6, 1998

 

In the above cited research, the result was an objective measurement of the superluminal tunnelling speed, and which has a near PHI value, which here is probably too far off pure PHI to be noticed, but in others PHI perfects, it is not discussed either by the researchers:

 

"After traversing the tunnel barrier, the peak of a photon wave packet arrived 1:47 ±0:21 fs earlier than it would had it traversed only vacuum."

--tunnelling Times and Superluminality: a Tutorial. Raymond Y. Chiao. Dept. of Physics, Univ. of California. Berkeley, CA 94720-7300, U. S. A. November 6, 1998. Pp 10.

 

Naturally add 1:47 and 0:21 and there we have a proximity to PHI with 1.68, as compared to 1.618, and apart from numerous PHI perfects and relatives, there are numerous proximity's to PHI as well, just as the EKG work of colleague Daniel Winter has slight variants in the magnetic signature harmonics from the heart cardio beat at moments of coherence.

Other almost perfect results that are at PHI, which were first predicted and then confirmed are mentioned in the following:

 

The Wigner theory predicted at midgap a tunnelling delay time of around 2 fs, or an effective tunnelling velocity of 1:8 c. The Buttiker-Landauer theory predicted at midgap an infinite effective tunnelling velocity, which implies a zero tunnelling time.

--tunnelling Times and Superluminality: a Tutorial. Raymond Y. Chiao. Dept. of Physics, Univ. of California. Berkeley, CA 94720-7300, U. S. A. November 6, 1998. Pp 8.

 

Of course the infinite velocity is of exceptional interest, I personally had been predicting this since 1993, and my colleague Daniel Winter has likewise, but from another, yet more than complementary, angle.

But what is of significance in these predictions, and their confirmation, which is to follow, is the 1:8 x faster-than-light tunnelling velocity. This is an almost perfect 3 x PHI 0.618 which equals 1.854, which here is a margin of error so slight that this is a clear Golden PHI hit. But from theory to practice, here these figures are confirmed:

 

"Recently, an experiment indicating the simultaneous existence of two different tunnelling times was performed in Rennes [18]. In frustrated total refl ection (FTIR), the tunnelling of photons through an air gap occurs between two glass prisms when a light beam is incident upon this gap beyond the critical angle. The Rennes group observed in FTIR both a lateral displacement of the tunnelling beam of light and an angular de flection of this beam. These two effects could be interpreted as evidence for two different tunnelling times that simultaneously occurred in the same tunnelling barrier. The lateral displacement is related to the Wigner time, and the angular detection is related to the Buttiker-Landauer time. As evidence for this, they cited the saturation of the beam displacement (the Hartman effect), and the linear increase of the beam detection, as the gap was increased."

--tunnelling Times and Superluminality: a Tutorial. Raymond Y. Chiao. Dept. of Physics, Univ. of California. Berkeley, CA 94720-7300, U. S. A. November 6, 1998. Pp 11.

 

Hence, the PHI approximate Wigner time velocity tunnelling of 1:8 faster-than-light is an actuality, further confirming our and others predictions. We should also remember that PHI harmonics are in the DNA double helix proportions themselves: height 34 angstroms and width 21 angstroms (these are rounded of PHI numbers and follow the Fibonacci sequence of numbers, which as they progress into higher orders, come ever closer to the perfect PHI. For instance the number 144 in the Fibonacci sequence is also 89 times PHI 1.618 = 144.002 (89 is also the preceding Fibonacci number before 144 from the addition 89 + 55).

This, however, is just the beginning, of the objectification of some very exciting new theories, which also validates the essentiality of novel modelling of the the Virtual domains through which the superluminal tunnelling is passing, in a series of octaves, which are PHI related and infinite, modelling by both PHI fractal platonic solid and PHI spiral asymmetrical interelationships (as my colleague Daniel Winter has avidly dedicated a good portion of his life to fulfilling), and intergeomtrical models, which sequence the superluminal intergeometrical versions of the Platonic solids, through all inter-relationship phase-conjugate spins, in the post-polarity domains of the faster-than-light realms, where the poles of cause and effect have interpenetrated through each other.

This also leads to the unveiling of yet another mystery, which some novel colleagues already have made ardent strides to graph and map its illusive fractality (i.e.Sheliac, Los Alamos Labs), and PHI spiral modelling of time:

 

"It is now clear that one cannot rule out the Wigner time simply on the grounds that it yields a superluminal tunnelling time. It also appears that there may exist more than one tunnelling time. Hopefully, the mysterious role of time in quantum mechanics will be elucidated by these studies."

--tunnelling Times and Superluminality: a Tutorial. Raymond Y. Chiao. Dept. of Physics, Univ. of California. Berkeley, CA 94720-7300, U. S. A. November 6, 1998. Pp 12.

 

Since 1998 there have been further tunnelling experiments, and it is these that have seen recent public media highlighting. There is more than one tunnelling time harmonic. And certainly quantum time is taking a new stand in terms of mode lability. The shadow of this understanding, as Sheliac has demonstrated in temporal experiments at Los Alamos National Laboratories, upon analysing time in the nucleus of the atom, is one common element: fractality. Coherent fractality is evidenced in our universe by both the Fibonacci series of numbers, and its perfected partner the PHI harmonic cascade, where the scale changes, but the ratio remains the same, and no information is lost, mirror-to-mirror.

PHI is the only constant which can be divided by itself, to yield itself, and be multiplied by itself to yield itself, as occurs in the perfect hyterodyning of toroidal waveforms. In other words when two coherent wave toroids make love, their children [hyterdyning], are the sum of the two parental toroids multiplication and addition of themselves and each other, this renders the wavelength of their children).

Now in the new research, the May 30, 2000 issue of the New York Times publishes an article by James Glanz, entitled "Physics Approaching Speed of Light Mind-bending new studies appear to break Einstein's rules", and reports:

 

"In the most striking of the new experiments, a pulse of light that passes through a transparent chamber filled with specially prepared cesium gas appears to be pushed to speeds of 300 times the normal speed of light. That is so fast that, under these peculiar circumstances, the main part of the pulse exits the chamber even before it enters. "

 

This article was written whilst I was trying to retrace one experiment that mentioned superluminal speeds of 4.3 or 4.32 (which at present I have not been able to retrieve, but suspect it is on the German 1998 television documentary on Dr. Chiao's work, which I am in the process of obtaining again from the source that gave me the initial copy.

Why was the 4.32 so important. Actually any decimal harmonic of it, like 432 or 43,200 is of value. For this is another approach to PHI. We look here at the figures in geometry. The platonic solid the dodecahedron, is a perfect symmetrical object that can beautifully map PHI, and a dodecahdron can be constructed by 5 cubes. With the first cube tilted at -64 on its X axis, the next cube is tilted at 72° on the Y-axis, followed by 144; 216; and 288. Hence, 5 cubes at 72° on the Y-axis.

What has 72° to do with PHI? A golden mean triangle is made by taking one horizontal line, any length, as base, and then extending two 72° lines vertically up until they kiss each other. Five of these golden triangles, with each respective base tilted at 36° renders the Pythagorean pentagramme within a pentagon, the perfect persona for PHI. 5 cubes at 72°; 5 golden triangles at 72°. The first a 3D object of 12 pentagon faces, the latter a 2D single face.

6 x 72 renders 432. When a dodecahedron's 12 pentagon faces are used to map number sequence degree's, then some astounding numbers emerge from this 3D PHI complex. Taking the first pentagon, it is comprised of 5 36° lines. Hence, 36; 72, 108; 144; 180. The next face then continues this sequence: 216; 252; 288; 324; 360, and so forth, now continuing on the next neighbouring face: 396; 432...

Hence, we now have travelled on a geometrical visual journey to discover the 432 connection to PHI, any decimal harmonic of this number can be utilised to construct the same geometrical PHI complex. Take for instance 43,200, the number of seconds in 12 hours, this is 600 times 72°. Hence, make a complex of 20 dodecahedrons.

This can be done simply by stellating each of the 12 pentagon faces with 5-sided pyramids, and their capstones enable the construction of the 20 icosahedron triangular faces (another PHI complex, and this cascade from dodecahedron to icosahedron is a golden one). Then stellating each of the 20 triangular faces with the platonic solid called the tetrahedron (a pyramid of 3 triangular faces one a fourth base triangle), and their tips, or capstones make the vertices for the 12 pentagons of the dodecahedron (if one needs a little aid in visualising, there are some animated basic models at Intergeometry which should aid one on the way to this).

Do this another 18 times, and one has a stellation PHI complex of 20 dodecahedrons. On each dodecahedron the number sequence continues. I.e. from 2,160 of the first dodeca, we commence to the next stellated dodeca: 2,196; 2,232; 2,268; 2,304; 2,340 etc. With the last pentagon point of dodecahedron 20 giving 43,200°. One could also do this with dodecahedrons of the same scale, making a daisy chain from the north and south face, of 20 dodecahedrons, linked by their faces, and the last 36° point of the 20th dodecahedron is 43,200° from the initial first 36° base of the first dodecahedron.

A PHI complex arcade and cascade of fractality. But what has this to do with the 300 times faster than light speed? Captain Bruce Cathie brought to light some significant equations to the public at large, in a series of books spanning some 40 years of mathematical research.

Amidst this, he pointed out that the vacuum speed of light, when measured in nautical mile grid seconds, a universal measure that can be used throughout the galaxy and universe, not limited to a single planet in its measure, then converting the standard measure of the speed of light from miles per second to nautical mile grid units, the translation is precisely 144,000 nautical mile grid seconds.

300 times 144,000 renders 43,200,000 -- a perfect decimal harmonic of 43,200, which can be comprised of 20,000 stellated dodecahedrons in PHI. If this figure reported by the New York Times, the San Francisco Chronicle, and the Times News Network is correct, then we have an enormous new PHI view on the superluminal fractality universe of implosion, or the imploverse.

OVERVIEW: 300 TIMES 144,000 MINUTES OF ARC PER EARTH GRID SECOND IN A VACUUM FOR THE SPEED OF LIGHT = 43,200,000, this decimal harmonic of 432 and 24 hours in second 43,200, and the Great Pyramids polar radius ratio to Earth from the multiplication of its original height by 43,200, as well as its base (in multiplication of 43,200) to the circumference of the equator, may be quite interesting. Geometrically these decimal harmonics are extremely interesting.

Before we continue looking at other PHI harmonics within the scientific literature, let us look at an alternative perspective for the same. In the November 1998 paper prepared for the science journal Nature, Dr's M. A Nielsen, E. Knill, and R. Laflamme, entitled: "Complete Teleportation":

"One of the most unexpected is a procedure called quantum teleportation that allows the quantum state of a system to be transported from one location to another, without moving through intervening space. Partial implementations of teleportation over macroscopic distances have been achieved using optical systems, but omit the final stage of the teleportation procedure. Here we report an experimental implementation of the full quantum teleportation over inter-atomic distances, using liquid state nuclear magnetic resonance (NMR). The inclusion of the final stage enables for the first time a teleportation implementation which may be used as a subroutine in larger quantum computations, or for quantum communication. Our experiment also demonstrates the use of quantum process tomography, a procedure to completely characterise the dynamics of a quantum system. Finally, we demonstrate a controlled exploitation of decoherence as a tool to assist in the performance experiment."

--Complete Teleportation, presented to: Theoretical Astrophysics T-6, MS B-288, Los Alamos National Laboratory, Los Alamos, NM 87545; Department of Physics and Astronomy, University of New Mexico, Albuquerue, NM 87131-1131; Computer Research and Applications CIC-3, MS B265, Los Alamos National Laboratory. October 29, 1998.

 

Apart from the outstanding stride over and way beyond the other superluminal experiments, in terms of practicality, whilst knowing that this research was sponsored by "the National Security Agency and the Office of Navel Intelligence for support" (pp 8), the decay time figure for their quantum teleportation process is listed as 2.6 s (femto seconds), as listed in the above graph.

As well as the obvious PHI 2.618 close proximity, in this factor, further significance is seen in that 2 femto seconds is equal to 1:8 times the speed of light. Hence, this is 2.25 times C. (1.618 + 0.618 = 2.236, which is very near, but yet off, yet significant like the 2.618 proximity).

Where the significance comes out, however, is when we multiply the vacuum speed of light of 144,000 nautical miles per grid second by 2.25. The geomatria figure that results works perfectly in the geometrical 3D modelling of the PHI complex. For the resulting 324,000, is 9,000 times that 36° for the pentagon lines, and 324,000 in this mapping of degree's fits precisely 150 dodecahedron's, wheather in a PHI cascaded stellation relationship with the icosahedron, or by daisy chaining relationships of their pentagon faces.

Now in extension and conclusion to this present edition of this article (which will be expanded) the Sunday Times and the Times News Network published a story in their respective papers this Summer, as follows:

 

"Dr Raymond Chiao, professor of physics at the University of California at Berkeley, who is familiar with Wang's work, said he was impressed by the findings. 'This is a fascinating experiment,' he said.

"In Italy, another group of physicists has also succeeded in breaking the light speed barrier. In a newly published paper, physicists at the Italian National Research Council described how they propagated microwaves at 25% above normal light speed. The group speculates that it could be possible to transmit information faster than light.

"Dr Guenter Nimtz, of Cologne University, an expert in the field, agrees. He believes that information can be sent faster than light and last week gave a paper describing how it could be done to a conference in Edinburgh."

 

Indeed, professor Nimtz had succeeded in sending the information that was Mozart's 40th Symphony superluminally, which is not speculation. The 25% mentioned above, if the correct figure, is once again of significance. For 25% of 144,000 nautical miles per grid second, is 36,000 nautical miles per grid second. This is also a 36° pentagon decimal.

Hence, the 25% tunnelling speed exceeding the speed of c, renders 180,000 nautical miles per grid second, in the vacuum. Here we have a decimal harmonic of 180, which is the five 36° lines of the pentagon. It is also 2,500 x 72°, the golden triangle. Hence, another geometrical PHI complex.

 

SUMMARY

We have seen that the microwave tunnelling done by Dr. Nimtz was 4.7 x C, which is a perfect PHI harmonic of 1.618 plus 5 x 0.618.

[Political Junkie Too]

I'm waiting for my next post to show up so I know what to type.

-PJ

[martin_fierro]

Mongo just pawn in game of life.

<|:)~

[RightWingAtheist]

Send it to the Smokey Backroom, I say. The moment I saw the words "superluminal" and "biofeedback", I knew this was cowphat.

[hattend]

I just knew that when I clicked on this post that I would have my eyes gloss over before finishing the first paragraph.

Always go with your first hunch.

[ApplegateRanch]

PHI, fie, ho-hum.

[RightWingAtheist]

Are you referring to an Asimov story?

[Servant of the 9]

Are you referring to an Asimov story?

They were just stories?

So9

[Luis Gonzalez]

Who's got the Cliff Notes?

[Semper Paratus]

Could I get the Reader's Digest version?

[Conservomax]

PHI is golden mean, many things in nature adhere to it - many know this. Idea I have is good, make up long story about how phi relates to speed of light many will accept it's true.
Many say phi is the work of creator, phi is magical they make movie about phi, but dumbasses call it Pi.

[R. Scott]

4.7 C? I won’t claim to understand it, but I like it.
The more I learn of quantum mechanics, the more Star Trek seems like a possibility.

[avg_freeper]

These people totally need to get up to speed with the time cube people.

[RightWhale]

The inverse square law can be defeated this way, but not the speed of transmission of information. The speed of light remains a limit no matter how much doubletalk is dumped on the problem.