Canada Scandal: I'll be vindicated or resign: Martin

The Star ^ | 02/15/04 | ALEXANDER PANETTA AND JIM BROWN

[Pikamax]

I'll be vindicated or resign: Martin PM goes live-to-air with Rex Murphy and residents of Canada

BY ALEXANDER PANETTA AND JIM BROWN CANADIAN PRESS

OTTAWA — Paul Martin put his political life on the line today by boldly promising to resign if a public inquiry shows he had prior knowledge of a sponsorship scandal that saw $100 million in public funds go to Liberal-friendly advertising and public relations firms. "Anybody who is found to have known that people are kiting cheques, that people are falsifying invoices - me or anybody else - should resign," Martin said on CBC's Cross Country Checkup.

"I've made that very, very clear. I don't think we have to debate that. Anybody who knew that kind of thing was going on and let it happen, they don't belong in public life."

The prime minister made the statement as a succession of open-line radio callers vented their outrage over the scandal that has plunged the Liberal party and government into disarray.

One caller baldly told Martin that casting a ballot for the Liberals in the next election would suggest people don't care about being ripped off.

"What kind of message would we be sending to you in Ottawa if in fact we voted Liberal? We'd be saying, 'You can steal from us and that's OK,' " said Brad Smith of Toronto.

"It's enough, Mr. Martin. It is enough. It makes my stomach feel sick."

The prime minister remained poised during the barrage, insisting he is as mad as anybody else and wants to get to the bottom of the affair.

But he dodged a key question that kept popping up - would he delay an anticipated spring election until after all the facts have come out on the sponsorship affair.

"When we go to the polls I'm really not in a position to say," he told one questioner.

Martin appeared ready for the barrage as he held his latest in a flurry of public appearances since the scandal broke with the publication of Auditor General Sheila Fraser's damning report last week.

The prime minister sat stone-faced as CBC host Rex Murphy read a letter from one woman who said she had voted Liberal her whole life but now declared herself "Martin's worst nightmare."

Martin has said repeatedly he was kept out of the loop under former Prime Minister Jean Chrétien while a small group of bureaucrats and political figures mishandled the sponsorship program.

"Did I hear rumours, were there articles in the newspapers that obviously I read about this?" Martin asked rhetorically. "Clearly, yes, I did hear rumours. I read the articles in the newspapers.

"If the question is, did I know that people were kiting cheques, that people were making payments that were inappropriate, did I know all of those things? The answer is absolutely not. I did not know that."

Murphy predicted the upcoming election will hinge on Martin's handling of the current crisis.

"Nothing like this has hit the Liberal party in quite a long time," said the open-line host. "The outcry has been astonishing, down on the street, in people's homes and in 1,000 offices."

One caller accused the prime minister of turning a blind eye to the scandal when he was finance minister under Chrétien.

"I'm tempted to suspect that your ignorance was in part wilful, and that you may have taken a decision, at some point very early on, not to find out about some of these things," said Bruce Toombs of Montreal.

He maintained an election must be delayed so "justice is done at the polls if it's not done judicially."

Martin and his government have been under fire since the auditor general reported that up to $100 million - of a total $250 million in sponsorship funding - went to private consultants who did little to advance the objectives of raising the federal profile in Quebec and promoting Canadian unity.

"I am mad as hell that some people did this," Martin said earlier Sunday in an interview on CTV Question Period.

"I am mad that there are some people who clearly perverted what should have been a government program that should have done a lot of good. I am very mad that some people may have enriched themselves, and I am very determined to get to the bottom of this and punish those who were involved."

One of Martin's tactics in the wake of Fraser's report has been to distance himself from Chrétien, saying the former prime minister seldom sought his counsel on Quebec political affairs.

A Martin aide, speaking on condition of anonymity, has even been quoted as suggesting the Chrétien government knowingly covered up evidence of criminal wrongdoing.

Martin was more charitable Sunday, calling Chrétien a man of "unquestioned integrity" and saying he's sure his former boss was not personally involved in the scandal.

But he again insisted he was kept out of the loop by Chrétien's people on Quebec-related issues because of their falling-out over the party leadership.

Some Chrétien loyalists have argued that Martin is making a mistake and sowing division within the party by trying to shift the blame to the previous administration.

The prime minister, who in addition to calling a public inquiry has said he will co-operate with a Commons committee that is also looking into the affair, dismissed talk of civil war within Liberal ranks.

He was adamant, in the CTV interview, that the government can recover from its troubles and persuade voters to shift their attention to its policy agenda of health care, education and other issues.

"If we go into an election making it very clear that we're dealing with this mess, if we go into an election basically saying to Canadians that we are going to improve the quality of their lives, we are going to build a stronger country, we'll win the election."

[Mister_Magotchi]

I have said that they are not honoring the purpose of this site when they, for example, defend the anti-Americanism of Canada.

That never happened in the instances I brought up.

[Mister_Magotchi]

Sorry if I read too much into your last post. I will probably check out that site too.

Its good to know there are like minded people north of us, we might need them one day.

PS: Thanks for your service to our country.

[Mister_Magotchi]

Yes there is alot of anti-American sentiment coming out of Canada, and I am not happy about it. .

I have many complaints with the current Canadian government.

I started boycotting France before it was called for.

As I just wrote in my last post:Its good to know there are like minded people north of us, we might need them one day.

[Sunsong]

"I have said that they are not honoring the purpose of this site when they, for example, defend the anti-Americanism of Canada."

"That never happened in the instances I brought up."

Please provide the exact quotes (and threads) you are talking about.

If you think it is rude for me to suggest to someone that their time may be better spent changing their own country than coming onto this American site and complaining about our expressions of outrage and anger toward their countries -- then we have a difference of opinion about what the definition of "rude" is. I think it is "rude" to come onto another country's site and tell people off. I would never go to Free Dominion, for example, and say the kind of things to them that Canadians have said to Americans on this site. I find it rude and offensive that foreigners come onto this American site and criticize us for expressing our opinions.

Where do you think that Americans should go to rant and express their views if not to an American site?

[Sunsong]

"Yes there is alot of anti-American sentiment coming out of Canada, and I am not happy about it."

And there are a lot of us that feel that way. And my view is that this is the perfect place for Americans to rant and rave and express themselves. I find it rude and offensive when foreigners come here and tell me off for exercising my first amendment rights on an American site.

"Its good to know there are like minded people north of us, we might need them one day."

There are some good and decent people in Canada. There are some good and decent Canadians that write regularly on this site, and I appreciate their participation. They are clearly conservative and furthering conservatism. And there are some Canadians who appear to have no other purpose in being here than to defend Canada, and that is not the purpose of this site as I understand it. If Jim Robinson sees it otherwise, I will respect that. It is his site. But my view is that foreigners who come here, not for the purpose of furthering conservatism in America, but for defending Canada, or France or Syria -- are not honoring the purpose of this site.

As far as "needing" Canadians some day. My mind doesn't work that way. I don't think in terms of what I would call co-dependent bargaining -- "I'll look the other way while you trash American and then one day I'll ask a favor of you". I would rather strengthen our alliances with those countries who stood with us (UK, Aussies, Poles, Spain, Italy, Israel, Eastern Europe, Japan etc. etc) than try to make some "bargain" with Canada.

If Canada comes around, I will be very happy and I will acknowledge it. Until then I will criticze Her.

[Delphinium]

Go to your own comments page and find your own posts.

I think it is "rude" to come onto another country's site and tell people off.

You spend most of your time on FR telling people off.

I know in your twisted way of thinking , you actually must have thought they were telling Americans off.

Sorry I did not read it that way.

Even after you told them off they remained polite.

[Sunsong]

And what do you spend most of your time of Free Republic doing, Delphinium? Attacking me? Making things up about me? Making assumptions about me?

I hope you are not claiming that you are a polite person, Delphinium? Your posts are "on the record" and easily reposted. You seem to think that you are justified in personally attacking someone for no other reason than that they do not agree with you.

Are you so filled with animosity toward me that you will now defend anti-Americanism in Canada?

[Mister_Magotchi]

Please provide the exact quotes (and threads) you are talking about.

It will take me some time but I will.

I agree that Canadians shouldn't come on Freerepublic to complain about us, but that is not what these Canadian freepers were doing.

[Mister_Magotchi]

I read this whole thread and couldn't find once where these Canadian freepers deserved your scorn. http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1058635/posts

If you can show me where they made one anti-conservative, or anti-American remark I will apologise to you.

[Delphinium]

Attacking me? Making things up about me? Making assumptions about me?

You must be paranoid.

Yes, I am on the oposite side of you when it comes to rights of animals above humans. But it isn't personal. There are all kinds of people like you in the world.

Peta.

Are you accusing me of defending anti-Americanism?

[Sunsong]

Would you like me to quote you apologizing for making things up about me? Would you like me to quote some of the things you have made up about me? Some of the assumptions you have made about me?

Is it that hard for you to be honorable about this? You have been wrong about me. You have not come clean about it.

I have clearly said that humans are more important than animals. What do you think you gain by misrepresenting my positions? What do you think you gain by personally attacking me? What do you think you gain by making things up and making assumptions about me? the world, at the expense of your Soul?

I have a different view than you do about dangerous wild animals. Do you feel that that justifies your personal attacks of me? Btw, this thread is about Canada. Please stick to the topic. It is considered "rude" not to :-)

Are you defending the anti-Americansim coming out of Canada and those on this site who defend Canada?

[Sunsong]

Your link doesn't work.

You also suggested that I was "rude" to running joke on another thread. And yet, it is running joke who was rude. Maybe you could apologize to me about that? :-). Here is his first quote.

"Btw, if I hear another idiot go off about the lack of French military victories and their cowardice, I would tell them that Napoleon was pretty darn successful with his French army and his men did not lack for courage." runningjoke

runningjoke not sunsong is rude

And, btw, that is what I am talking about when I say that foreigners are rude coming onto this American site and telling us off for expressing our opinions. You have not answered me yet when I have asked you where do you think Americans should go to rant and rave about anti-Americanism and antiAmerican policies in other countries?

[Delphinium]

You are right this is not about wolves, its about Canada, and Canadians.

Its about sunsong always twisting what others say.

I have never met a anti-American Canadian on freerepublic yet.

[RunningJoke]

Sunsong,

"It is remarkable by how much a pinch of malice enhances the penetrating power of an idea or an opinion. Our ears, it seems, are wonderfully attuned to sneers and evil reports about our fellow men."

So, your claim is I attacked you personally and was rude to you, because I stated only an idiot would go off on the lack of French military victories. Are you saying that I'm wrong about the French Military victories? Or, were you angry that I lumped idiots with people who make extremist assumptions about an entire country? I can only answer with this, "It is perhaps true that ignorance tends to be extremist. Our opinions about things we do not know are not likely to be balanced and moderate."

"The remarkable thing is that we really love our neighbor as ourselves: we do unto others as we do unto ourselves. We hate others when we hate ourselves. We are tolerant toward others when we tolerate ourselves. We forgive others when we forgive ourselves. We are prone to sacrifice others when we are ready to sacrifice ourselves."

I am sorry, if you consider yourself an idiot.

[Sunsong]

You:”I agree that Canadians shouldn't come on Freerepublic to complain about us, but that is not what these Canadian freepers were doing.”

I disagree. I think that it is clear that runningjoke’s only purpose on that thread was to complain about us and tell us off and put us down. As I said, I think that he was rude, not me. And I think that this statement from hawkaw is about defending Canada rather than promoting conservatism in America:

{{{“It is important that Canada and the USA be serious and solid allies for we have to work together on this continent - may it be trading oil for goods or may be for protecting both of our lands - we both need one another (unlike what a few on this board think). Just as important is the relationships at the head of each country becoming solid again. As tensions ease between this solid President and new right leaning PM, then, maybe, just maybe, some on this board will wake up and quit with some of their comments addressed to "all" Canadians, when a left leaning Canadian journalist writes an article.” – hawkaw}}}

I find that attitude offensive. You may not. I think it is rude for foreigners to come here and complain about our criticism of their country. Especially countries like Canada, France and Syria – that are so anti-American.

Free Republic is not an international forum where people from all over the world are invited in to debate Americans and tell us off. It is an American site promoting conservatism *in* America. And, as I have said, there are Canadians who are here doing just that and I appreciate their contribution. Others, like hawaw and albertabound seem to have as their purpose – “the defense of Canada”. And again, I don’t see that as honoring what Free Republic is about.

I think it is healthy to let off steam and to rant a little bit. And I think that this is the perfect place to do that. I find it rude that foreigners come onto this “American soil” and complain about that. You may not agree, but you have not said where you think it would be appropriate for Americans to rant about Canada or France or Syria – if not here.

In the end, Canada is an arrogant, irrelevant, UN-loving country that benefits so much from its proximity to the United States, but rather than showing gratitude and acknowledge us – continually puts us down. Hawkaw said that the new PM, Paul Martin was a right-leaning guy. I totally disagree and perhaps you can see from the present scandal going on up there that Paul Martin is still part of the problem, not part of the solution. My opinion is that Martin should resign.

I believe that Canada is a threat to us. Linda Vestor on Fox News is going to do a special tonight on the threat of terrorism coming from both our border with Mexico and with Canada. I hope that you can get a chance to see it. And, btw, Fox News Channel is not *allowed* in Canada.

[albertabound]

I want to thank you for standing up for the right of Canadian Freepers to participate in discussion on Free Republic. For the record and in my opinion, the media and the politicians on both sides of the border have contributed mightily to the bickering, nitpicking and insulting nattering that has gone on between the two closest nations in the world. Generally speaking, an exercise that only benefits the terrorists in this post 9/11 world. Free republic is one of the few forums where the man on the street can exercise his viewpoint and possibly make a difference. My only purpose when posting on these good pages is to input a Canadian Conservative viewpoint into the Canadian American discussions and to correct perceived inaccuracies when they arise. In Canada, we have been struggling under the heel on liberal dominance for ten years, similar to the Clinton era in the U.S. We have found Achilles in the liberal heel and are exploiting it for all it is worth. Much of the strength in our movement has come from interacting with American counterparts also fighting the good fight. Freepers like Quidnuc and others who, without fear, favors or insult have posted articles exposing Canadian liberal hypocrisies, helping us to remove our mask of moral superiority and see Canadian liberalism for what it is.

[Mister_Magotchi]

In Canada, we have been struggling under the heel on liberal dominance for ten years, similar to the Clinton era in the U.S. We have found Achilles in the liberal heel and are exploiting it for all it is worth. Much of the strength in our movement has come from interacting with American counterparts also fighting the good fight. Freepers like Quidnuc and others who, without fear, favors or insult have posted articles exposing Canadian liberal hypocrisies, helping us to remove our mask of moral superiority and see Canadian liberalism for what it is.

Doesn't sound anti-American to me.

What are you talking about, Canada is part of North America.

[albertabound]

And as part of North America, Canadian Conservatives must unite with American Conservatives to combat the creep of liberal hypocracy. Canada bashers fail to understand that this is a battle of cultures not nationalities. Blaming Canada for it's liberal policies my make them feel better but many of the same symptoms and problems are endemic in America as well.

[albertabound]

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/ArticleNews/TPStory/LAC/20040221/MACLEANS21/Entertainment/Idx

This is a classic example of what I mean. McLeans was once a profitable Canadian institution. It is now resorting to sensationalism in order to stop it's slide into liberal obscurity.It worked and pissed off Americans big time.Corporate survival and liberal hypocracy trumps international goodwill.Do these people care that Alberta farmers are shooting their cattle, Loggers are on welfare? Hell no, just increase circulation and save our jobs and bugger the fallout and collateral damage.

[Delphinium]

Alberta farmers are shooting their cattle, Loggers are on welfare?

Sounds like Idaho.