Requesting advice on a "store security" issue. (first Vanity in over a year, cut me a little slack?)

Self | Self

[Stu Cohen]

Okay, I am in a big hurry for a birthday party and I run into a large consumer electronics store today to make a last minute purchase. I know I’m short for time, so I get the first item that looks like it will be acceptable (I usually comparison shop a lot). I quickly take the item to a cash register, and pay for it.

I head for the door, hoping that traffic is light since I have about 15 minutes to get to the party. What is at the door? A HUGE line, about 15-20 people long. Apparently, nobody can leave the store without having their bags checked against their receipts … and the doorman decides that they haven’t stolen anything.

For the record, they also had those “anti-theft” detectors at the door, so presumably someone would set it off had they stolen something.

Now, this particular doorman was not very fast. He looked at every item on everyone’s receipt, and put some kind of highlight mark next to each one. It literally would have taken me 20 minutes to exit the store.

So, I simply head out the door, past the doorman. I did not set off the theft detector … but he chases me out to the parking lot anyway and says “you can’t leave”.

I say, “I can leave. I just did leave. You have no legal basis to prevent me from leaving the store when I feel like it”.

He says, “we reserve the right to check all packages”.

I say, “what happens if I refuse to let you check my package”.

He says, “we reserve the right to deny you entry into the store”.

I say “Great! I’m not in the store and I don’t want to go into the store, so we have no problem”

He says, “get back in line so we can check your packages”.

I say, “ I don’t have time, and I don’t have to. I am now outside the store, everything I have in my bag is owned by me, and I have the receipts to prove it. Unless you have probable cause that I have stolen something then you cannot force me to stay in your store for 20 minutes with MY property. I paid for it. I now own it. It’s mine.”

He says “I’m calling the cops”.

I say “Go ahead”.

I leave.

He walks back to the store in a huff.

I’ve no idea if he called anybody. I somewhat doubt it since nobody witnessed any type of crime being committed.

Now, my question to you freepers who may have an inkling as to what the law is:

Can you be forced to stand in a line after you have paid for goods before you can leave a store? Does the fact that you have purchased something give the store the right to forbid you to leave? What if the line is 10 minutes long, 20 minutes long, an hour long? Are you legally obligated to stay in the store to prove that you have no stolen anything? Aren’t you free to leave when you feel like it, provided that you own all of the merchandise on your person?

I realize that we all usually concede to this “theft checks” as a courtesy, and we usually leave our bags in the front when we enter a store. Sure, if you don’t check your bag they can deny you entry or ask you to leave, but barring someone witnessing you stealing something, can they actively prevent you from leaving? What if you get a call on your cell phone that your wife is in labor or that the dog ran away? You can’t sprint out the door headed for home unless minimum wage guy at the door gives you the green light? You have to drop all your bags with all your possessions inside the store in order to leave (you couldn’t put something in your pocket?).

Correct me if I’m wrong, but detention requires affirmative probable cause, and standing in line to have your bag inspected is simply a courtesy that we have all become accustomed to, and are willing to do if it is done with reasonable speed … but we are in no way required by law to do this.

I didn’t steal anything. I committed no crime. From what I understand, your only legal obligation on private property is to leave when ordered. You can’t be ordered onto private property to satisfy someone’s curiosity or to prove your innocence.

Must I stand in line to prove my innocence before being able to leave a store, or is this one of those “myth requirements” that eventually works it’s way into the American Psyche as being a law by default … simply because most everyone agrees to do it? Aren’t we free to leave when we wish?

Can any armchair (or real) lawyers out there give me the scoop on this "company policy"?

Needless to say, I am not shopping there again - but what does the law say about this practice?

[South40]

Aren’t we free to leave when we wish?

You're certainly free to shop elsewhere from now on which is exactly what you should do.

[Stu Cohen]

Here's what I hope you'll do. Write a letter to the company and explain what happened, what you did, and why, and see (if they bother to respond) what they say. (I'd be very interested.)

You know. That's not a half bad idea. I think I will do exactly this.

I'll post if I get an official reply.

Whatever happened to "The Customer is King"? Am I the only one old enough to remember those days?

Companies wouldn't have even thought of accusing every customer of being a theif back in those days. Now we just accept it, and go back and patronize them the next week.

How did things get this way?

[jude24]

As I recall (although its been a while since I studied this stuff), they can detain you until the police come if and only if they actually see you steal something. Barring that, restraining someone would be false imprisonment.

I wouldn't want to risk pulling a stunt like that if I were a store owner.

[Triple Word Score]

Does it make a difference whether the store is a membership store like Sam's or Costco, or public-access like Circuit City?

[South40]

The percentage, per capita, of ILLEGAL aliens who are criminals is probablly much larger than the percentage of Muslims who are criminal.

[Triple Word Score]

I think it's because there are so very many thieves now. :-(

[Maigrey]

I worked retail for a number of years, so take it with a pound of salt:

They cannot hold you for any reason if they didn't witness you concealing merchandise, and kept you under constant surveillence the entire time you are in the store.

Personally, I would have been late to the party, and had me a person's job for false accusation, and maybe a manager's for not training this person in legal ramifications of false accusation.

Me thinks you need to make some calls and write some letters to some people.

[Drango]

How did things get this way?

$7.50/hr security guards? In an old thread, in another world, there was a discussion if MEMBERSHIP clubs such as COSTCO and Sams could deny you membership if you refused to submit to searches...Arghhhhhhh rip up my COSTCO card? Noooooooo...

[js1138]

OK, here's my take. When you go through the line the guy marks your receipt. If you try to take the item back they will give you a hard time.

I don't know exactly why they do this, but I believe it is to prevent people from going back into the store, picking up another identical item and heading out the door with it.

I think there is some justification for the policy, even if it sucks.

[fightu4it]

My advice? Stay out of Sam's Club.

[Stu Cohen]

You're certainly free to shop elsewhere from now on which is exactly what you should do.

I certainly won't be going back to that store, but here in LA, it is standard for most consumer stores. Best Buy, Staples, Fry's, Circuit City, Sears ... over the holiday's I spent a good cumulative hour in the "we don't trust you" lines.

I guess I need to do more online shopping. But returns, when necessary, are a real pain.

[Riley]

On a practical level, we all understand that shoplifting is a HUGE problem for retailers. But delaying and practically strip searching your customers is the worst form of prevention program I have ever heard of. Their HQ needs to get your letter of complaint.

True enough. My read of Stu's story is that the guard was moving like molasses in January. Maybe the guard need some managerial motivation to get folks out the door, or replacement. Practice with any such task breeds a familiarity with it, and it is usually pretty easy to see who needs scrutiny and who needs a cursory glance at the receipt and a 'have a nice day'.

I wonder how many actual shoplifters are caught by such people. Anybody ever seen it happen?

[Triple Word Score]

It's also hard to get a present online and have it under your arm when you walk in the door at the party ten minutes later!

Planning ahead is probably the best defense...easy to say, hard to do!

[South40]

This reminds me of the 70's when the "Pay before you pump" gas stations first came about. That has now become the norm. You can't trust those nasty California motorists, ya know.

[Redcloak]

No, they can't force you to stay and wait. However, they can refuse to accept a return on an item when the receipt doesn't have the little checkmark. One scam involves having a store employee print a bogus receipt. They hand it to an accomplice who goes to the shelf, takes the item on the receipt, and then walks straight to the return counter. Or the accomplice enters the store with a previously stolen item to return it for a refund. (Another variation is to attempt the same thing without a receipt claiming that the item was a gift.) If the store marks receipts as they go out the door, this scam doesn't work.

[SamAdams76]

I've never been held up in a line trying to leave a store but the practice infuriates me nevertheless. At BJ's Wholesale - a wholesale club I belong to - they always have some dork at the door that asks for my receipt and then checks my purchases against it. Now when I go there, I always have bottled water on the bottom of the carriage and this is always what these people are checking for as they want to make sure that the cashier didn't forget to ring those in. So in an insincere effort to seem polite, they always say "Don't forget to remove your BOTTLED WATER when you get to the car" when they are in fact scanning the receipt to ensure I didn't steal it. So now I beat them to the punch, by telling them not to forget to check off my BOTTLED WATER when handing them my receipt. This seems to annoy them greatly, much to my satisfaction.

BTW, you have nothing to worry about if the cops do come calling. You are not required by law to undergo their stupid search.

[vikzilla]

"I always assumed there were two lines....One for sheep, and the other for me and anyone else who wasn't shoplifting...I ain't got no wool on me so I don't stand in the sheep line.

ROFLMAO, you two made my day. I actually enjoy being a pr*ck in circumstances like these. Luv ya.

[beaureguard]

Another reason I've heard, but don't think it is very practical, is that the store is also running a check on it's cashiers. IOW, they are seeing if any "sweetheart" deals are being rang up by the cashier and customer in collusion w/each other. That may be why the security guard was going line by line on the receipt. Not smart, IMO with a big line, but maybe why.

[HighWheeler]

Interesting story. Sounds like Sam's club, and this was factor #1 why I don't shop there anymore. Factor #2 was paying for a "membership", what BS.

I am betting that they won't do anything, not only becuase they have no legal ground, but to do so would end the inspection practice as soon as the judge struck his gavel and pronouned you victorious.

[stands2reason]

They have absolutely no right to hold you unless they have a witness to you shoplifting. Otherwise, they could have a nasty fat lawsuit ob their hands.