Pilot in Hot Water for Allegedly Using Plane as Flying Pulpit

Talon News / GOP USA ^ | Feb. 10, 2004 | Jeremy Reynalds

[prairiebreeze]

NEW YORK (Talon News) -- A pilot asked passengers on an American Airlines flight to raise their hands if they were Christians, telling them they were "crazy" if they weren't, some of the passengers said Monday.

Passenger Jen Dorsey told CNN, "We were just at the beginning of our flight. The pilot came on to greet everyone and give his comments for the morning, and he said he'd recently been on a mission trip, and he'd like all the Christians to please raise their hands."

Also speaking on CNN, passenger Karla Austin said the pilot commented, "'If you are a Christian, raise your hand.' He said, 'If you are not, you're crazy.'"

Dorsey agreed that the pilot had called non-Christians "crazy."

Another passenger recalled a similar experience in an interview with WCBS-TV in New York. Amanda Nelligan told the station the pilot said those who did not raise their hands were "crazy."

Austin said no passengers raised their hands.

The pilot asked passengers to look around at each other and use the flight wisely or "just sit back and watch the movie," Dorsey said.

The airline is investigating reports about Friday's Flight 34 from Los Angeles to New York, a company spokesman told CNN.

American Airlines said that if the incident were true it "would be against our policy."

In a statement, the airline said, "It falls along the lines of a personal level of sharing that may not be appropriate for one of our employees to do while on the job."

American Airlines spokesman Tim Wagner said the pilot, whose name has not been released, denies using the word "crazy." CNN reported he told the airline that he had recently returned from a mission trip and was encouraging people to use the 4-hour plus flight to speak with other passengers about their relationship with God.

"American Airlines apologizes if anyone was made to feel uncomfortable by the comments of this pilot," Wagner told CNN.

Wagner declined to say whether the pilot has been grounded while an investigation is under way. The man, a senior pilot with the airline, did not fly again over the weekend, Wagner said.

Wagner would not say if the pilot had been scheduled to fly this week.

The result of the airline's investigation will not be made public because it is an internal matter, Wagner told CNN, adding it will be "handled internally according to American Airlines procedure."

Passengers were "shocked," said Austin, adding that some reached for their mobile phones and others used the on-flight phones.

"Just given the history of what's happened on planes in this country, anything can happen at this point. So we weren't sure if something was going to happen at takeoff, if he was going to wait until JFK to do something... But there was definitely [an] implication there that we felt that something was going to happen," Austin said on CNN.

Passengers complained to the flight attendants, who relayed their concerns to the cockpit. They were reassured that they had nothing to worry about on the flight, Austin said.

Attendants also told passengers they had contacted airline officials about the matter, she said.

About 45 minutes into the flight, the pilot apologized -- but his apology focused on the crew, not the passengers, Dorsey said on CNN.

"He came on and said, 'I want to apologize for my comments earlier. I think I really threw the flight crew off a little bit, and they are getting a lot of flack for the things I said. So I want to apologize to my flight crew,'" she said.

Wagner said the pilot offered to speak after the flight with anyone who wanted to discuss his comments.

Austin said on CNN that on her way off the plane she told the pilot "he should be ashamed of himself."

"He just nodded and looked to the ground, and that was it," she said.

[Modernman]

Just what is it about religious speech that frightens people so much?

It's not religious speech, it's the context in which it was used. Nobody is frightened by religious speech on a street, in a church, in a bar, in people's homes, on TV etc. However, when a pilot starts talking about religion as he is ready to fly the plane, it is unusual. Many people have a fear of flying, especially since 9/11. Anything unusual coming out of the cockpit is bound to make people nervous.

If he'd started talking about his house, or his furniture, would that have been prohibited also? After all, it doesn't fall under the category of "accepted pilot speech" either.

If the pilot had started talking about random things that were unrelated to his job of flying the plane, I would have gotten very nervous about that, too, becuase such speech would have been unusual, given the context.

Sure, the company can prevent your religious speech to a degree if you're an employee, but the fact that you're on board with this loss of a basic freedom is quite disturbing.

You have very few constitutional rights when on someone else's property- if you're in my living room, you have no right to free speech or religion. You have no right to bear arms.

So who decideds what time or place? Business? Governmental speech police? The ACLU?

When you're on a private person's property, they get to decide what the appropriate time or place is for yo to exercise your rights.

Any religious speech in public that is not the utterances of our blood enemies is acceptable.

A privately owned airplane is not a public forum, any more than your car is a public forum. Any more than FR is a public forum. Or, do you believe that Jim Robinson has no right to set rules as to what people can and cannot say here?

You seem to be in the camp of those who believe that their right not to be offended supercedes the right of others to speak freely.

Actually, a private company is free to decide which is more important: the right of its customers to not be offended or the right of its employees to say whatever they want. If American decides the right of its customers not to be offended is less important, that's American's choice.

Sure, sure. That's what they always say when they take away your right to speak out.

So, you're a 1st Amendment absolutist then? Anyone can say whatever they want, whenever they want it and nobody, not even a private entity, can limit that right? Are you in favor of flag burning, too?

[Hildy]

If a pilot started talking like that I'd be off that plane before you could say Mother Mary. This guy either is a fanatic or has serious mental problems...or both.

[Modernman]

Our policy is to make all passengers and employees feel comfortable at all times since we operate in a society with many individuals of diverse backgrounds.

That pretty much sums up the problem with what the pilot said.

[gcruse]

Are you in favor of flag burning, too?

If flag burning is speech, then I would, under jim35's thinking, be justified going into jim's home and burning his American flag.  Anything else violates my first amendment rights.  Gotta match?

[atlaw]

Huh? I point out to you that there is an unprecedented surge in very visible Christianity that is in no way whatsoever being squelched or silenced, and you draw from this yet more fodder for your self-pitying "I am persecuted" rant?

And what on earth makes you think that I disapprove of the current upsurge in Christian visibility and community presence? The fact that I do, in fact, disapprove of mixing state and religion? One does not follow from the other.

You apparently want the state to embrace and advance your particular brand of protestanism. But if you'll pause long enough to think it through, you'll realize that you don't want the state telling you how, when, where, or what to worship (which is, after all, the simple flip side of that constitutional coin you're tossing around).

The very best solution to this balancing act is what currently exists -- freedom to shout your beliefs from the rooftops, preach it on street corners, profess it in the construction of churches, and broadcast it in any form of media you choose. And concomitantly, to draw a bright and assiduously guarded line between the state and your religion.

I also think you need to step away from the computer for awhile and maybe take a walk outside. Get some fresh air. You seem to be on the verge of an "aimless rage implosion."

[Modernman]

If flag burning is speech, then I would, under jim35's thinking, be justified going into jim's home and burning his American flag. Anything else violates my first amendment rights.

We can go even further. If he doesn't have a flag, he has to go out and buy one so I can burn it in his living room. After all, if he doesn't give me the right to express myself any way I want at any time, he is oppressing me. I also demand a satanic alter to be provided to me.

[libravoter]

Well, I'm not sure how much it's worth discussing with you, as the last time I responded to your questions I heard nothing in return, but here goes . . .


You asked, "Ok, just what rule of A.A. did he break? Is religious speech prohibited by the airline? "

American Airlines isn't releasing their formal policy, so no one can answer in detail, but the article I read had this quote:

"American Airlines said that if the incident were true it 'would be against our policy'. In a statement, the airline said, 'It falls along the lines of a personal level of sharing that may not be appropriate for one of our employees to do while on the job.'"

The article also quoted another airline: "Our crews have specific guidelines, and one of those rules is to not express personal or political views," said Julie King, a spokeswoman for Continental Airlines."

So it would seem that the airlines, while not wanting to release their exact policies, do, in fact, prohibit behavior like this.

[leadpenny]

My thoughts have nothing to do with religion or anything else not having to with a pilot getting that airplane from point A to point B.

I had 10 years experience as a commercial airline pilot after retiring from the military. It's all about image. Pilots wear uniforms for a reason. And that reason is to present an image of professionalism. Of course above 10,000' with the cockpit door closed the pilots might be discussing any number of issues unrelated to flying. But, as far as the public is concerned, the flight deck crew is absolutely focused on the task at hand 100% of the time.

I always assumed there was a good number of "white knucklers" in the back and even tried not to use words like, "fog" or, "turbulence" etc.

Had I been the copilot on that American flight, I would have been on the phone to the Chief Pilot's office as soon as I got off the plane. I also would have watched the Captain very closely for the duration of the flight. This is not an issue of Religion or Free Speech. It's and issue of judgment.

[spetznaz]

Hi Jim35, I am Christian and born-again, and i think what this pilot did was inapporpriate. Spreading the Good News is important, and a calling, however tact has to be used in how the message is delievered. For example if i am sharing with someone i would not go and tell him/her "you pathetic creature, you need to repent and be saved so you can be rescued from your filthy life and nature."

Why would i not do that? Because the delivery is almost as important as the message (in my opinion as important), and that methodology would probably work against me. We need to spread the Message in a manner that will cause people to not only hear us, but 'feel' the Word in their hearts. Listening is not the whole thing ....getting the message is!

Now, this pilot had just come from a missionary trip. He was fired up with the word, and he just had to share it. That is ok. What is not ok is that he did it in a plane, as its pilot, during a time where most people are apprehensive about flying and terrorism. Most people on that plane were frightened by it (they were showing that on Fox news). And to be honest with you i would not exactly be at ease if a pilot started asking passengers who was Christian, and that anyone who was not was 'crazy.'

The reason that would make me ill at ease is because i know of people who say 'God God' yet do terrible things (Jim Jones of the Jamestown mass suicides for example). The passengers did not know who the pilot was, they did not know he just came from a missionary trip, they did not know the intent of his heart. All they heard was a person saying that those who were Christians should raise their hands, and those who were not were crazy, and should listen to the Christians.

To be honest with you if i heard that one of my first thoughts would be that a Jim Jones clone is flying the plane.

Anyways what i am saying Jim is this ....most people would not be happy under such an arrangement. And it was not the right place to do that ...and definetely not the right way to do so. The airline company crackign down on him is not doing so because he is Christian ....but because he was a professional who should have acted in a professional manner but didn't, and caused a great deal of consternation among the passengers. Samething would have happened if the pilot was Jewish, Hindu or Muslim (actually if he was muslim he would have probably been arrested and his pilot's license revoked).

Hence do not get irate at the posters who say the guy was wrong Jim. Honestly the guy was wrong in his delivery. Right in the message (from MY perspective), but totally and unquestionably wrong in his delivery and choice of venue.

What the pilot should have done, if he wanted to share, would ahve been to wait until he LANDED in the DESTINATION and then tell the passengers to talk to him after EXITING the plane. That would not have scared people. However what he did was totally frightening (if you do not use hindsight but put yourself while it is happening).

Imagine if the pilot was muslim and asked all muslims to identify themselves, and that non-muslims were crazy! Pandemonium!

[EggsAckley]

Thank you. You said it better than anyone. I abandoned this thread because every one who said that the TIMING was inappropriate was accused of being a Christian hater. That was NOT the message.

Again, thank you for clearing it up for once and for all. And so eloquently, as well.

[hocndoc]

CNN lies. Why would anyone believe a word they say? Why would anyone be *inclined* to believe a story like this about a Christian?

Actually, a first hand, eye witness account by a trained reporter can be found at this website.

http://www.advocate.com/html/stories/908/908_aa.asp

The witness is an editor at a Gay and Lesbian magazine, and has no reason to report in the pilot's favor. However, the article was easy to find by a Google News search.

""Findiesen's identity has been shielded by American Airlines, but the pilot spoke candidly to The Advocate and Advocate.com editor in chief Bruce C. Steele, who identified himself to the captain at the end of the flight. Findiesen then confirmed to Steele his identity, the spelling of his name, and that his home base is Washington, D.C. At no time did Findiesen mention homosexuality or say anything antigay. During the three- to five-minute interview, he was positive and upbeat and interested only in explaining the importance of witnessing about his faith.

What Findiesen said, as best the stunned passengers could recall once they were able to move about the cabin and confer after Flight 34 took off, was this: "I just got back from a mission," Findiesen said after making a routine announcement about the plane being second in line for takeoff. "You know, they say about half of Americans are Christians. I'd just like the Christians on board to raise their hands."

In the suddenly hushed coach section of the airplane, a few nervous passengers raised one hand, most no higher than shoulder level, none above tops of the seats.

"I want everyone else on board to look around at how crazy these people are," the pilot continued, with an intonation suggesting he was using the word "crazy" in a positive, even admiring manner. Evidently addressing the non-Christian passengers, he concluded that they could "make good use of [the flight], or you can read your paper and watch the movie.""""

[jim35]

"...I also think you need to step away from the computer for awhile and maybe take a walk outside. Get some fresh air. You seem to be on the verge of an "aimless rage implosion..."

So many of us are conditioned to see any religious speech as kooky, or fanatical, that now you can't make any comment without "scaring" someone else. It's sad to see how well conditioned the general population is to this. Mentioning God or Christianity used to be fairly mundane, but in the last 30 years it has become shocking to hear any mention of religion in public. So, to ask Christians to publicly expose their beliefs, must have come as quite a shock to any random group. Obviously even FReepers find public displays of Christianity to be beyond the pale. I don't. We will never agree. I think you should not be prevented from making such comments, even on the job, even if you're a pilot, but I guess religion has now become so controversial, that it can be frightening to hear someone espouse their faith in public. After all, we're so used to it being shouted down, you'd have to be crazy to publicly proclaim it. Therefore, anyone who does, is a nut, a fanatic, and is shoving something down your throats. Fine. I get it. But I think you are all wrong. I'm especially unnerved to hear this coming from Christians. Even Christians now think that there is a time and a place to even mention their faith, and that it's inappropriate under certain circumstances. I don't think it's EVER inappropriate to mention it, or to ask if others are Christian. This isn't preaching, it's just asking, or commenting, but suddenly it's too "controversial" a topic for general consumption.

[Thermalseeker]

Seems… meanwhile the pilot is involved with “flying” the plane during about a 10 minute window immediately before, during, and after takeoff, and then again immediately before, during, and after landing. The rest of the time is spent on housekeeping duties and can easily be filled by chatting or napping.

I know of no domestic carrier that allows "napping" by the flight crew. There are a few international carriers that allow one member of the flight crew to rest, but the others must remain at their stations. Even in the current world of glass cockpits, intertial navigation, GPS, and the like things can still go wrong in a double naught hurry. This guy should have been concentrating on managing the airplane. Oh, btw, did I mention that I am a pilot?

[Who dat?]

Oh, btw, did I mention that I am a pilot?

Didn't need to, I picked up on it right off.

My dad was a pilot (military and commercial). His brother (also USAF and was a military/commercial pilot). His other brother was a US Navy pilot (but never commercial - just a pilot and later a trainer).

I've heard it all.

They were in the military in the early/mid/late 50's, depending who you're referring to. They went commercial in the 60's (Hughes AirWest, Braniff, Eastern, Delta, American). Retired and died in the late 80's and early 90's.

Actually, one is still living - the Navy fighter pilot (uncle). My dad and his younger brother (USAF) didn't live so long...

But whatever.

The best quote I've heard regarding pilots was "Pilots don't want to be lectured on how to do their job."

Ha. They left out the "or anything else" part. Ha. Arrogant fux.

The only people more arrogant are astronauts. I suppose they deserve the REAL "Sky God" title.

Anyhoo... Let's not pretend that a commercial pilot has any sort of hardship whatever. They work less hours in a month than most people work in a week, and get 5+ times what they'll make. I've seen it. It's a good gig if you can get it, but consider yourself damn lucky if you do.

[atlaw]

"Mentioning God or Christianity used to be fairly mundane, but in the last 30 years it has become shocking to hear any mention of religion in public. So, to ask Christians to publicly expose their beliefs, must have come as quite a shock to any random group."

Really? Where the heck do you live? Can't be anywhere south of the Mason-Dixon.

[jim35]

I live in Bryant, a small town in Arkansas, and I can assure you it's well below the Mason-Dixon line.

[atlaw]

And in Bryant, when you discuss your Christianity, are you "used to it being shouted down," and do people consider you "crazy to publicly proclaim it?" Do the people in Bryant assume that anyone who discusses their Christianity "is a nut, a fanatic, and is shoving something down [their] throats?" I would be very surprised if that was the case.

I know that in my twin hometowns, Chattanooga, TN, and Houston, TX, public affirmations of Christian belief are viewed as perfectly normal, and it is not the least bit "shocking to hear any mention of religion in public."

[jim35]

"...I have ZERO interest in hearing what you have to say in response, so don't even bother..."

Sure, but you had PLENTY of interest in putting in your two cents worth.

"...You have done more singlehandedly to discredit religion in general and Christianity in particular on this thread than anyone I have run across in a long time..."

Really? Maybe I'm the most dangerous man in America now, instead of Rush? What an honor! So, let me guess... you're a Christian, but you don't want to force your beliefs down anyone else's throat. Sure. I've heard that one before from anti-Christians, or Christian-lite's. Did it ever occur to you that I'm coming from the side of freedom, more than from the side of religion? For heaven's sake, I'm not some zealot who thinks I'm a new-age prophet, I just STRONGLY believe in freedom of expression, especially religious expression. ANY religioius expression, except for muslims, with whom we are at war.

"...If we were in the air, I would have called 911, called my family and said my final goodbyes,..."

See my previous post which agrees with the idea that IF this was the general concensus, IF this is how a rational person would have taken such comments, that it would have been ill-conceived. I'm not dense, unlike some of my detractors. My problem is with the automatic, knee-jerk reaction against any public religious utterance, and the punishment that will inevitably follow any such. Why isn't that your problem, too?

"...I would have felt and acted the same if the pilot had just come back from an estate planning seminar and announced "If you (d)on't have a will raise your hands"..."

How do you know how you would have reacted? Have you read what the pilot's words were? Read his actual statements again, not just what CNN reported them as. If you'd interpret those statements this way, you're just looking for an excuse. But, like I said, if the statements and the question were really so villainous as to frighten the passengers in such a way, then it was a mistake by the pilot. But what do you suppose the pilot's actual intentions were?

"...I couldn't blame these passengers if they had beat the $hiot out of this senile old fool. He should be fired and have his pilot's license revoked..."

I think that's just a tad bit harsh, don't you? Do you really attribute such evil intentions to this guy? Does the punishment need to be so radical? You sound very childish here. Maybe a public beating isn't the best solution. Perhaps you have an agenda? Maybe you should be thanking me for "discredit(ing) religion in general."

"...If we were in the air, I would have called 911..."

Hello, 911? The pilot just asked the Christians on the plane to raise their hands. Send help, fast! I think he may be carrying a Bible!!! Yeah, another Christian extremist. Spare me. Do you remember which religion is hijacking our planes? Let me give you a hint. It's not Christians.

"...The only thing that I can figure out is that you ARE this fool of a pilot. There can't be two of you out there who are this dense..."

Sure there can. Maybe there are even THREE of us. Be afraid. Be very afraid. Who knows what Christianity lurks in the hearts of men? Hint; It ain't The Shadow. You know, you don't have to be a Christian to tolerate free speech. Don't make the mistake of assuming that I'm some sort of lay-preacher. I'm just a conservative who supports freedom. BTW, should all of the passengers have "beat the $hiot out of this senile old fool," or just the strong young Aryans among them? After all, some of the passengers may not have been physically fit enough to properly kick, hit or stomp the old fool. Maybe some of the weaker among them could just have spit on him.

[jim35]

"...We can go even further. If he doesn't have a flag, he has to go out and buy one so I can burn it in his living room..."

Brother! You have an incredible ability to make apples into oranges. Can you make lead into gold, too? Put the whisky glass back down, and try again, only this time with actual logic.

[jim35]

"...I know that in my twin hometowns, Chattanooga, TN, and Houston, TX, public affirmations of Christian belief are viewed as perfectly normal,..."

So, are you allowed to have a moment of silence in your schools? Do you have a nativity scene on the courthouse lawn during the "Winter Holidays?" Are your pilots allowed to ask if you are a Christian? Are the 10 Commandments posted anywhere in public? Can your high school valedictorians mention Jesus in their graduation ceremonies? Can your city employees wear a cross on the job? Hmmmm??? Because if you answered yes to ANY of these questions, you can bet that it won't last. The ACLU, in conjunction with the court system, will soon put a stop to it. I think you are blind, atlaw, to all that is going on around you to stifle public displays/utterances of Christianity, or else you are in favor of it.