The false dilemma behind the Bush Amnesty

January 17th, 2004 | Sabertooth

[dirtboy]

The bill will more than likely be defeated in the legislature anyway

Funny, I recall the same thing being said about McCain-Feingold.

[Sabertooth]

The key is to get the Illegals to leave our country on their own initiative."

Of course, this is precisely what Bush's new immigration plan *does*, except of course that it accomplishes this key goal in a non-obvious manner (hence, unnecessary and hostile reaction to said plan).

No, it doesn't.

The President proposes that the Federal Government offer temporary worker status to undocumented men and women now employed in the United States and to those in foreign countries who have been offered employment here. The workers under temporary status must pay a one-time fee to register in the program, abide by the rules, and return home after their period of work expires. There would be an opportunity for renewal. In the future, only people outside the U.S. may join the temporary worker program, and there will be an orderly system in place to address the needs of workers and companies.
Fact Sheet: Fair and Secure Immigration Reform
For Immediate Release
Office of the Press Secretary
January 7, 2004

The legalized-Illegals of the Bush Amnesty would only be required to go home if they don't get a renewal of their blue cards. Do you honestly believe that if the President won't make Illegals go home to get into the so-called "guest worker" program, that he'll make them go home for renewal, after they've been legalized?

Furthermore, this President doesn't deport many Illegals now, and still releases Illegals with standing deportation orders on OR. That's why we have 100,000 more absconders now than we did two years ago.

There are upwards of 400,000 individuals who have received final deportation orders that are hiding in our communities. Their appeals have run out, and those orders tell them, “it’s time to go.” But, the Bureau of Immigration and Customs Enforcement can’t find them! What’s worse, 80,000 of those people have criminal convictions, just like Miguel Angelo Gordoba! They were in the hands of our law enforcement. Can you imagine opening the doors of our prisons and letting 80,000 criminals run back into the streets? Well folks, that’s exactly what has happened with these 80,000 criminal aliens.

What’s more, 3,800 of those people with final deportation orders are from countries with a known Al-Qaeda presence.
Statement of the Honorable Charlie Norwood
The CLEAR Act of 2003
July 9, 2003

Compare these figures to those of two years ago...

The Justice Department's decision to track down and deport 6,000 Middle Eastern aliens who've been ordered to leave the country attracted howls of protest from all the usual places earlier this week. The government has a list of more than 300,000 deportable immigrants.
Deportation Disorder
National Review Online
John J. Miller & Ramesh Ponnuru | January 10th, 2002

These are Illegals who've lost their deportation hearings, and the President still hasn't recognized that they are flight risk.

Why would the President's lackluster approach to enforcing the law against Illegals suddenly change after their legaliization?

[Southack]

Last night you and I settled our positions on registration.

Today, Sabertooth's thread focuses on convincing illegals to go home voluntarily.

Thus, a new wrinkle has been added to our earlier debate.

One wonders, if you are against registration, will you likewise oppose convincing illegals to return home voluntarily?

And that's a question. I'm not putting words into your mouth.

[dirtboy]

Why would the President's lackluster approach to enforcing the law against Illegals suddenly change after their legaliization?

And, looking at Bush's proposal from the viewpoint of illegal aliens, the ones who might register are the ones who come here for a short time period and plan to leave after making some money for their family back in Mexico. The ones who have lived here illegally for years, who are trying to bring their entire family here, aren't about to tell the government where they are and set the clock ticking as to their eventual departure. They'll wait for a full amnesty to be proposed.

[Southack]

"The workers under temporary status must pay a one-time fee to register in the program, abide by the rules, and return home after their period of work expires. There would be an opportunity for renewal."

"The legalized-Illegals of the Bush Amnesty would only be required to go home if they don't get a renewal of their blue cards." - Sabertooth

No, that's not how I read it. Yes, there are "opportunities" for renewal, but they have to FIRST go home to get said opportunity. See above.

[ovrtaxt]

Bush's plan requires them to voluntarily return to their home countries after three years in order to apply for additional time here in the U.S.

Unless they have a baby.

Just a microcosm of the whole plan. It's too easy to 'work the system' here. Welfare and all public assistance currently available to illegals needs to be ended. That would do more to remove the incentive for these lawbreakers than anything Bush has proposed.

The truth is, he is kissing Fox's butt over this issue. Why? I have yet to figure that out.

[AzJohn]

After investing 3 years of their lives into Bush's new plan, few illegals will be willing to risk losing it all. Rather than forfeit their legal right to live and work here, as well as lose their refundable taxes, most illegals will opt to return back to their home countries in order to be able to apply for more legal time here.

A little over half of the illegals we have now are people who came here legally originally and overstayed their visas. I'm skeptical that the voluntary departures you describe will usually happen. I think we'll need some additional interior enforcement, although there is a possibility that might be incorporated as this goes through Congress.

[Sabertooth]

Cutting income taxes and dividend taxes is the wrong direction domestically for you?!

From my post at #1:

"Other than Terror and taxes, I lost my enthusiasm for President Bush quite a while ago."

As to the rest of the red herrings... also from #1:

"However, the President's domestic agenda leaves me cold, for the most part. I want nothing to do with most of it, I think it's bad for the country."

Since you know me "better than that," and since this second glance has shown that my brush was not as broad as you'd thought at first, there's no need to go any further off-topic.

[Southack]

"The illegal amnesty proposal along with the Patriot Act should make any American, much less conservatives, shake in their boots."

Nonsense. I've read the entire Patriot Act. It's harmless. You can't cite a single sentence in that entire law that does didly against your rights.

Anyone who claims that the Patriot Act threatens Americans is someone who hasn't read that law on their own.

And that includes you.

[Southack]

Point taken.

[dirtboy]

One wonders, if you are against registration, will you likewise oppose convincing illegals to return home voluntarily?

Let's go back to the speeding analogy from last night. If enforcement is stepped up, a few speeders are caught, but the sight of increased enforcement gets most speeders to slow down voluntarily. IMO the only people who might be willing to register are men who plan to only be here for a short period of time, who are already planning to return home. The people who are already here illegally for a long period of time won't register and start the clock ticking. They'll remain in the shadows and wait for a better deal.

However, if we eliminate government bennies for illegals and make it very painful to get caught hiring illegals, the folks who have been here for years will no longer wish to stay, as they will have no means to support themselves. They will deport themselves or starve. Maybe we can have a modest federal program to provide bus fare to any illegal who is willing to leave voluntarily.

[PSYCHO-FREEP]

So, what's your point?

All that hyper ventillating over McCain-Feingold and the country is still here.......amazing!

[dirtboy]

So, what's your point? All that hyper ventillating over McCain-Feingold and the country is still here.......amazing!

Mendacity is normally not a viable debating point, but you're apparently willing to try.

[Jim Noble]

the trick is how did Bush turn so many conservatives into socialist lemmings?

Because our enemies came to kill the women and children, and GWB confronted them courageously and is now whipping their asses all across the planet.

There are no purists in foxholes, or something like that.

[ovrtaxt]

I've read the entire Patriot Act. It's harmless. You can't cite a single sentence in that entire law that does didly against your rights.

Anyone who claims that the Patriot Act threatens Americans is someone who hasn't read that law on their own.

Can you imagine the Patriot Act with Hillary in power? It wouldn't be the Islamofascists whose phones they tap.

[lainde]

bump for later read!

[ovrtaxt]

That's so true. Give us a small government conservative who's hawkish on the war in the primary, and Bush has serious competition. Unfortunately, that's not reality.

[Mamzelle]

re: Bush's plan requires them to voluntarily return to their home countries after three years in order to apply for additional time here in the U.S.

After investing 3 years of their lives into Bush's new plan, few illegals will be willing to risk losing it all. Rather than forfeit their legal right to live and work here, as well as lose their refundable taxes, most illegals will opt to return back to their home countries in order to be able to apply for more legal time here.

A Bush-supporter friend of mine is using this argument to try to get me over being upset with that "willing worker and willing employer" line.

Trouble is, this three-year thing has to be enforced.

Will it be enforced? Do you believe it?

[Southack]

"Can you imagine the Patriot Act with Hillary in power? It wouldn't be the Islamofascists whose phones they tap."

The Patriot Act didn't invent phone tapping.

[diotima]

The legalized-Illegals of the Bush Amnesty would only be required to go home if they don't get a renewal of their blue cards. Do you honestly believe that if the President won't make Illegals go home to get into the so-called "guest worker" program, that he'll make them go home for renewal, after they've been legalized?

And if we can make them go home if they don't get a renewal of their blue card, THEN WHY CAN'T WE JUST MAKE THEM GO HOME NOW? Why would we suddenly be able to do something, we not only claim we can't do now, but use as the basis for this policy: "we can't deport them all."

Furthermore, I see no reason to believe that the illegals here now are all going to sign up for this program. There will still be a black labor market, as there is now. There will still be employers who do not want to jump through the red tape to hire a payroll person to handle withholdings or an HR person to authenticate documents of new hires.

And, black market labor may pay more after taxes and SS are taken out, epecially if the guest workers are supposed to fill those jobs no other American's want, ie low paying.

I won't even get into the inevitable social program expansion that will be required to subsidize low-paid guest workers.