Imam is questioned about Islamic attitude toward infidels (Snopes Blows It)

Snopes.com ^ | 1/14/04 | Snopes

[swilhelm73]

Claim:   Imam is questioned about Islamic attitude toward infidels.

Status:   Undetermined.

Example:   [Mathes, 2003]

Allah or Jesus?

Last month I attended my annual training session that's required for maintaining my state prison security clearance. During the training session there was a presentation by three speakers who represented the Roman Catholic, Protestant and Muslim faiths who explained their belief systems. I was particularly interested in what the Islamic Imam had to say.

The Imam gave a great presentation of the basics of Islam complete with a video. After the presentations time was provided for questions and answers. When it was my turn I directed my question to the Imam and asked: "Please, correct me if I'm wrong, but I understand that all of the Imams and clerics of Islam have declared a holy jihad [Holy war] against the infidels of the world. And, that by killing an infidel, which is a command to all Muslims, they are assured of a place in heaven. If that's the case, can you give me the definition of an infidel?"

There was no disagreement with my statements and without hesitation he replied, "Non-believers!"

I responded, "So, let me make sure I have this straight. All followers of Allah have been commanded to kill everyone who is not of your faith so they can go to heaven. Is that correct?"

The expression on his face changed from one of authority and command to that of a little boy who had just gotten caught with his hand in the cookie jar. He sheepishly replied, "Yes."

I then said, "Well, sir, I have a real problem trying to imagine Pope John Paul commanding all Catholics to kill those of your faith or Pat Robertson or Dr. Stanley ordering Protestants to do the same in order to go to heaven."

The Imam was speechless.

I continued, "I also have problem with being your friend when you and your brother clerics are telling your followers to kill me. Let me ask you a question . . . would you rather have your Allah who tell[s] you to kill me in order to go to heaven or my Jesus who tells me to love you because I am going to heaven and wants you to be with me?"

You could have heard a pin drop as the Imam hung his head in shame.

Chuck Colson once told me something that has sustained me these 20 years of prison ministry. He said to me, "Rick, remember that the truth will prevail."

And it will!

Origins:   The piece quoted above ("Allah or Jesus?") is an editorial penned by Rick Mathes, Executive Director of the Mission Gate Prison Ministry.

We asked Mr. Mathes if he could provide some information about the origins of the piece, and he responded:

This article is an exact recording of a real event that I participated in. My only commentary was, "the truth will prevail." I think this meeting was in May 2003 and I will not give out more details for fear of retribution. The purpose of the class was to increase "religious sensitivity", that is, tolerance for each others beliefs and I really blew that. The director was purple with rage however the Imam and I exchanged signs and said "Salaam" which means "peace" in Arabic (I hope). I questioned him (Imam) really to get a clear refutation of what is commonly thought of this Jihad nonsense. But apparently he wasn't educated enough to rebut my remarks or by his silence on this matter (I think) concurred with my implied conclusions. In either case I was surprised. And when I said I found it hard to be his friend, everyone laughed out loud. So the mood was an amazing mix of those who were interested like me and others that were just amused by the whole thing. I left the matter open on purpose (the truth will prevail) so that either side could speak up and claim the truth as their own.

Mr. Mathes signed off by stating that he was "not inclined to invite further inquiry," making it difficult for us to independently verify his account since it contained no checkable details such as names, location, or date. (The Mission Gate Prison Ministry works with dozens of different correctional facilities in Missouri and Illinois). However, reporter Greg Kearney, writing for the Lee News Service, traced the story to a correctional facility in Fulton, Missouri, and came away with a decidedly different version of events from Missouri state officials.

According to Tim Kniest, Public Information Officer for the Missouri Department of Corrections, the event described was a training program for prison volunteers, for which ministers from several faiths were invited to give presentations in order to acquaint prison volunteers with the varied religious beliefs of the inmate population. The man who gave the presentation about Islam was not a Muslim minister; he was an inmate pressed into service to present a short film on Islam and answer some questions when the prison's Volunteer Coordinator was "unable to find an Imam to speak." Moreover, reported Greg Kearney:

According to Mr. Kniest, "The inmate did a good job," adding, "He was asked a few questions that were beyond his ability to answer. But he was not asked anything like that question [in the editorial]."

Mr. Kniest reported that the Volunteer Coordinator at the prison said that no such exchange as the editorial reported ever took place. "He certainly did not 'Hang his head in shame,'" according to Kniest. In fact, the inmate was thanked by the assembly before being escorted back to his quarters. Furthermore, the coordinator does not recall any questions dealing with jihad [Holy war] against the infidels of the world as reported in the editorial.

In the editorial the inmate is presented as an Imam, or Islamic minister, which he clearly was not.

Last updated:   13 January 2004

  The URL for this page is http://www.snopes.com/politics/religion/allah.asp
Click here to e-mail this page to a friend

Urban Legends Reference Pages © 1995-2004
by Barbara and David P. Mikkelson
This material may not be reproduced without permission

[swilhelm73]

Snopes blows it big time here. While his liberal slip has been showing alot of late...this one takes the cake.

He has no idea what prison or prison meeting this particular quoted event may have occured at, yet jumps to the conclusion that it is the particular one he quotes from heavily.

I guess Snopes really isn't worth much more then a news of the wierd web site any more...

[tkathy]

I would like to see the Zogbys asked these questions.

[John H K]

Ah, I'd done a quick check on Snopes and didn't find it.

Like I mentioned, the original account just absolutely SCREAMS bogus. Remember, if it's too "good" to be true, and it probably is (and the original account from the perspective of a lot of FReepers was VERY good.)

[Rubasoo]

They are saying 'undetermined'. How is that blowing it?

This site has been a great tool in proving most of the rats following the Pied Piper's tune wrong - so I tend to give it a break.

Liberal? I haven't noticed a big lean, but who knows...

[John H K]

Eh, for whatever reason, in terms of forwarded e-mail political urban legend stuff (and this one is LIKE a lot of that even though it's a web page; I'm sure it will BECOME an e-mail one) it seems there has been slightly more stuff that from the right of center than left of center that has turned out to be false or unconfirmable.

And that really upsets people. Snopes shot down the infinite number of "guy beats up celebrating Arab" ULs right after 9/11 which I think POed people.

Anyway, I fully expect Allah vs. Jesus to be posted on Free Republic about 200 times over the next few months.

Good to see Snopes on the ball.

Snopes, 1) Bothered to try to check with the author

2) Sought out other people who may have been at the alleged incident

That's more than any of the people stroking themselves with glee over the Allah vs. Jesus story who simply assumed it was true can say.

And the idea that the incident would play out in the story is just laughable. If anything it would end in some sort of heated exchange instead of an Imam "hanging his head in shame." What a crock.

[skip2myloo]

I could be wrong, but the story STILL doesn't ring true to me. I lived in Fulton, Missouri for many years - and still have many connections there.

Unless a state corrections facility has been built there in the last few years - I'm not aware any are in existence.

There is a State Mental Hospital (the oldest west of the Mississippi) and it has a facility for the criminally insane (the Biggs Building).

And, there is the Missouri School for the Deaf, but that is hardly a corrections facility.

As an aside, rumor has it Fulton served as the model for the novel Kings Row, later made into a movie starring Ronald Reagan. Fulton is also the site of Winston Churchill's famous speech at Westminster College where he coined the phrase "Iron Curtain" on March 5, 1946.

Fulton is located in Callaway County, a large county. The southern border of the county is defined by the Missouri River, and there are state prison farms on the river bottom land in the county, but they are at least 20 miles from Fulton.

The Missouri State Penitentiary is located in Jefferson City, also the state capital, situated on the south side of the Missouri River, across from Callaway County, about 30 miles from Fulton.

[2banana]

Islamic Tolerance:

Saudi Arabia - Conversion by a Muslim to another religion is punishable by death. Bibles are illegal.

Yemen - Bans proselytizing by non-Muslims and forbids conversions. The Government does not allow the building of new non-Muslim places of worship

Kuwait - Registration and licensing of religious groups. Members of religions not sanctioned in the Koran may not build places of worship. Prohibits organized religious education for religions other than Islam

Egypt -Islam is the official state religion and primary source of legislation. Accordingly, religious practices that conflict with Islamic law are prohibited. Muslims may face legal problems if they convert to another faith. Requires non-Muslims to obtain what is now a presidential decree to build a place of worship

Algeria - The law prohibits public assembly for purposes of practicing a faith other than Islam. Non-Islamic proselytizing is illegal, and the Government restricts the importation of non-Islamic literature for distribution.

Jordan - Has the death penalty for any Muslim selling land to a Jew.

(All information is from US State Department Human Rights Reports)

I could go on with more examples.

[William Terrell]

I have to agree. The usual response is that the violent jihad against non-believers is limited to a radical/extremist sect. That response is well known and easy to give.

[PBRSTREETGANG]

You could have heard a pin drop as the Imam hung his head in shame.

This story does not ring true. I don't see how Snopes blows this one by stating "Status: Undetermined"

[AppyPappy]

(All information is from US State Department Human Rights Reports)

Link please

[John H K]

See, here's the problem.

Whether Islam is pure evil, and Christianity is superior to it is IRRELEVANT TO WHETHER THE ALLAH VS. JESUS STORY IS TRUE.

Hate to be a broken record but people need to get past simply believing everything that they'd like to be true is true and everything they'd like to be false is false.

It's clear a lot of people are just so thrilled with the story because they WANT it to be true they're missing how unbelievably unrealistic it sounds.

And, for the sake of argument, let's say Islam is pure evil and Christianity is perfect; how is the proliferation of a falsehood in support of Christianity over Islam good? Or does it not matter if this particular story is true or false?

[AAABEST]

I agree with you.

I hate Islam and the false prophet profoundly and would love nothing more than to see it wiped off the face of the earth for what it's doing to the souls of children and civilization.

That said we don't need lies or half truths to expose it for what it is. There is plenty of solid evidence that it's nothing more than an evil political cult of the Ishmaelites.

[skip2myloo]

Speaking theologically, no - the veracity of this particular story doesn't really matter.

It COULD be true, depending on time, place and the individuals involved. Clearly, there ARE Muslims who believe it is their duty to kill infidels.

Speaking historically, this is hardly a new phenomenon - lot's of Christians have killed Muslims for exactly the same reason (remember the Crusades ?).

In fact, a lot of Christians have killed fellow Christians because of disputes about whose dogma is best (remember the Spanish Inquisition, or even Northern Ireland today).

Seeking the freedom to believe as they chose, led to the ultimate arrival of my Anabaptist Ancestors in Pennsylvania in 1709 (because some of their relatives had been burned at the stake in 16th Century Switzerland).

The U.S. model for "freedom of religion" is really unique in the world and we are somewhat naive to believe the rest of world thinks as we do.

In the words of Rodney King, "why can't we all just get along?"

[skip2myloo]

I guess it boils down to semantics.

My wife and I had a similar discussion the other night.

She said something to the effect that I should "respect" an acquaintance's religion (not Islam).

Reminiscent of Voltaire ('...fight to my death your right...'), I replied that I DID NOT respect that particular religion, but that I DO respect passionately their RIGHT to believe whatever they want to believe.

Just as I expect them to respect passionately my right to believe as I choose.

Now, I really don't give one whit what Muslims (nor anyone else) believe, so long as they practice their dogma in a way that doesn't offend nor affect me.

Once some group starts attacking me (or us), then of course I (we) have a duty to defend my (our) system of beliefs.

That's what I mean by "getting along." Beyond the concept of live and let live, I have no idea what you infer "getting along" means.

I'm not suggesting group hugs nor sitting around in circles singing Kumbaya.

I believe in freedom and liberty. Isn't that what America is supposed to be all about ??

Assuming a perfect world, and you were left alone to pursue spiritual fulfillment in the manner of your choosing, does your stated "lack of interest" in "getting along" mean you prefer hostility and warfare ??

If so, then I suggest you are part of the problem rather than part of the solution.

Two wrongs do not make a right.

[expat_panama]

The U.S. model for "freedom of religion" is really unique in the world

Jews fled on pain of death from Christian Europe (accept Jesus or die) and lived for centuries peacefully in countries where Islam was the state religion.  When Christianity took over an area as in Spain, the Jews, Moslems, Unitarians, what have you, fled for their lives for other countries.       

When Mr. Mathes delights in shaming Islam, and when someone talks about "Muslim pigs known as "The Cult-of-Death", they don't win hearts to Jesus.   Name calling makes the Faith look bad to the billions of people in the world who don't call themselves Christians. 

What would our Lord say about the 'Allah or Jesus' question?   In the hundreds of times that our Savior used the word "God",  he did not say "Gott, Dios, Dieu, or Deus.  He and the apostles spoke Aramaic, and the Aramaic word is closest to "Allah" (E-LEE E-LEE L-MAA-NAA SAA-BAACH-TAA-NEE) = (My God, my God, why have you forsaken me).

The choice is either to serve our Creator, or to attack others.

[swilhelm73]

I'd suggest people actually read Snopes response to the article.

Yes, he does contact the original author and gets little from him.

Then he finds someone who claims to know where and when this incident occured even though this latter individual's case bears extremely little resemblance to that quoted orginally.

So then, why did Snopes quote extensively from the latter? Bias.

The story does fit many of the elements of "to good to be true" or "exaggeration to prove a point". That isn't the case Snopes makes.

However, it is easily possible that a prison ministry that operates over a large geographic area had one session that didn't go so well; ie the one Snopes describes, and one that did, the one Mathes describes.

As for Snopes's bias, well if you haven't noticed it you just plain aren't looking.

[skip2myloo]

I was wrong, a maximum security state corrections facility was built just east of the Fulton State Hospital a few years ago.

The new county jail and sheriff's office is also nearby.