Posted on 01/08/2004 7:21:37 AM PST by Scenic Sounds
Edited on 04/13/2004 2:45:24 AM PDT by Jim Robinson. [history]
How old is the Grand Canyon? Most scientists agree with the version that rangers at Grand Canyon National Park tell visitors: that the 217-mile-long chasm in northern Arizona was carved by the Colorado River 5 million to 6 million years ago.
(Excerpt) Read more at sfgate.com ...
I would lean on His (Holy Spirit) ability to ensure the message God has for His church. The Apostle Paul discussed Greek philosophies on Mars Hill, but I wouldn't take that as endorsement of said philosophies.
If the Holy Spirit desired for the Book of Enoch to be considered "Holy Spirit inspired bread of life", He would have ensured it was on the menu.
My desire is not to be divisive on this forum, because I am reminded that God is not a respecter of men, nor for one person and against another.
Joshua 5:13-14
13 And it came to pass, when Joshua was by Jericho, that he lifted his eyes and looked, and behold, a Man stood opposite him with His sword drawn in His hand. And Joshua went to Him and said to Him, “Are You for us or for our adversaries?”
14 So He said, “No, but as Commander of the army of the LORD I have now come.”
And Joshua fell on his face to the earth and worshiped, and said to Him, “What does my Lord say to His servant?”
No! What an answer He gave Joshua. Lean not on your own understanding, for your heart is desperately wicked. Feed on the Holy Spirit preserved bread of life, for only He has the power to ensure its preservation. He is sovereign.
Thanks for the ping Mark!
Indeed, the study of ancient manuscripts – like the study of archeology - is not everyone’s ”cup of tea”.
I gather y’all are not interested in investigating the subject any further, and that is fine of course - but for anyone interested in the subject, here are some of the points raised and leads to follow for more information:
Also, the Book of the Secrets of Enoch is II Enoch, the Slavonic text, not I Enoch, a copy of which was found at Qumran in the Dead Sea Scrolls.
There's a very well known fringe group that preaches Gnostic Christianity using the Keys of Enoch which is quite a lengthy book and lesson program. Are you by any chance affiliated with them? It's known as the Church Universal and Triumphant, and relies heavily on New Age ideas, preaches the worship of the Ascended Masters, and probably awaits the return of the Lord Matreya.
Some parts of the Enoch texts, as you know, deal more with Chaldean ideas of astronomy, and creation, rather than Jewish. I propose further, that no mention of Enochian mysticism was ever promoted by Moses, and in fact, at Sinai, God's Law and revelation superseded any pre-flood notions whatsoever for the true believer. Though Enoch is referenced, briefly, in the NT, it is for his commendable "walk with God" or praiseworthy belief, before the Law and revelation and before the first covenant was ever entered into, not for any visions or theology attributed to him.
Y'all gather wrong. Enoch is not pseudepigrapha because it was rejected from the Christian Canon. It is pseduepigrapha because it is a piece of fantasy that was considered a false writing by the Jews themselves. If Enoch belongs in the Canon then so does Nostradamus and Betty Crocker.
Have nothing to do with godless myths and old wivs' tales; I Tim 4:7
One of the big problems with the ancient texts and the ancient Jewish Kabbalah is that it has been embraced by new age mysticism. It makes seriously researching either on the internet very difficult.
As a matter of fact, I wonder if a "Maitreya" will be the agent for the one world religion prophesied in Revelation. Maitreya claims to be the messiah for all religions and (so I hear) is popular at the U.N.
That's very interesting indeed. Southern Baptists aren't usually the types to be delving into arcane literature. Do you believe in the theory of evolution?
Lord Maitreya is Lucifer so yes, he's the one
But thou, O Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book, [even] to the time of the end: many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall be increased. - Daniel 12:4
So, are you saying that Daniel 12:4 means there will be extrabiblical books in the end times that clarify the scriptures for us?
| And when the Pharisee saw [it], he marvelled that he had not first washed before dinner. | |
| And the Lord said unto him, Now do ye Pharisees make clean the outside of the cup and the platter; but your inward part is full of ravening and wickedness. | |
| [Ye] fools, did not he that made that which is without make that which is within also? | |
| But rather give alms of such things as ye have; and, behold, all things are clean unto you. | |
| But woe unto you, Pharisees! for ye tithe mint and rue and all manner of herbs, and pass over judgment and the love of God: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone. | |
| Woe unto you, Pharisees! for ye love the uppermost seats in the synagogues, and greetings in the markets. | |
| Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye are as graves which appear not, and the men that walk over [them] are not aware [of them]. | |
| Then answered one of the lawyers, and said unto him, Master, thus saying thou reproachest us also. | |
| And he said, Woe unto you also, [ye] lawyers! for ye lade men with burdens grievous to be borne, and ye yourselves touch not the burdens with one of your fingers. | |
| Woe unto you! for ye build the sepulchres of the prophets, and your fathers killed them. | |
| Truly ye bear witness that ye allow the deeds of your fathers: for they indeed killed them, and ye build their sepulchres. | |
| Therefore also said the wisdom of God, I will send them prophets and apostles, and [some] of them they shall slay and persecute: | |
| That the blood of all the prophets, which was shed from the foundation of the world, may be required of this generation; | |
| From the blood of Abel unto the blood of Zacharias, which perished between the altar and the temple: verily I say unto you, It shall be required of this generation. | |
| Woe unto you, lawyers! for ye have taken away the key of knowledge: ye entered not in yourselves, and them that were entering in ye hindered. |
For more on my musings on the subject:
Some scholars believe that any time the Scriptures refer to a historical event as a prophesy, such as Daniel speaking of Media/Persia, Alexander the Great, the Roman Empire and the Tribulation – that the Scriptures were written after the fact. IOW, these scholars believe there is no such thing as prophesy. Some of that school of thought – and its ilk – believe that the Tribulation spoken of in Revelation refers to the fall of Jerusalem in 70 A.D.
I do not agree. I believe the Tribulation is yet to come. I read the book of Daniel as prophesy, ditto for Revelation, etc. Therefore, in the context of Daniel Chapter 12, the verse at 12:4 means that a book has been sealed – not to be available until the end (just before the Tribulation) when travel and education is increased.
Excellent discussion.
"IMHO, the theory of evolution is neither religion nor ideology and thus should never be “believed in”."
That would depend on what you thought the word 'believed' actually means.
"I cannot say that the book of Enoch is that book..."
I think that that book is simply the one Daniel wrote,in the sense that the Holy Spirit would open the scriptures to us in due season.
"Some believe there will be new revelations just before the Tribulation."
Maybe.However I tend to think that they won't actually be "new" as such but rather they (increasing revelations) will ratchet up the amount of conviction in the Body of Christ.
I've read the book of Enoch and found it a great experience...as someone once said..."it magnified the Bible to me" 8-)
thanks for letting me rant, LOL I'm all over the place!
"Now the Lord of peace Himself give you peace by all means."
God bless
May God continue to bless you in accordance with Christ's prayer for all of us who love Him, John 17! Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth.
Does that mean the more esoteric a work is the more it is like Scripture? That makes sense. Of course Enoch would have to be exempted from inerrancy to be canonized. It contains many errors. Like I said, if Enoch is inspired, why not all pseude(false)pigrapha(writings)?
A simple Google search of "Enoch gnostic" will reveal that even the fans of the book admit it is a gnostic creation. Gnostic heresies were refuted almost 2000 years ago and are certainly written against in the NT. Since it's been so long since their burial it seems safe to revive them I suppose.
Isn't the moon airless? Solar wind would be radiation and particles (plus of course astoroids and maybe small comets), but the point is that all this should have accummulated over Millions (no is it supposed to be Billions?) of years. That's why the legs of the LEM were designed so long, because the scientist believed strongly in evolution timeframes.
The other thing that mitigates against evolution is molecular biological machines like the flaggella (the whip like hair that propels some bacterium). The hair spins completely around propelling the creature. The thing is that there is an exact sequence of adding the right things at the right time else you can't get the effect. The odds of this happening by chance are beyond astronomical.
And I won't use the argument of the complexity of animal reproduction (behaviors, chemistry, sequencing), evolution can't touch it.
The fact is that nature is complex and the more you look at it the more complexity you discover. Evolution says the opposite but as the years go by more complexity than thought possible is the norm.
Thus the only logical conclusion is intellegent design. And that these designs are more complex than anything we could have imagined. To say that evolution produced what we see is, to say that monkeys created Shakespere's Othello from Trees and dark clay banks over millions of years.
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