Posted on 01/08/2004 7:21:37 AM PST by Scenic Sounds
Edited on 04/13/2004 2:45:24 AM PDT by Jim Robinson. [history]
How old is the Grand Canyon? Most scientists agree with the version that rangers at Grand Canyon National Park tell visitors: that the 217-mile-long chasm in northern Arizona was carved by the Colorado River 5 million to 6 million years ago.
(Excerpt) Read more at sfgate.com ...
2nd, do you think God likes the Colts?
One crucial instance of the difficulty offered by a Hebrew term lies in the prehistoric name given at the exodus by the Hebrews to their God. Strictly speaking, this ought to be rendered "Yahweh," which is familiar to modern readers in the erroneous form of "Jehovah." Were this version intended for students of the original, there would be no hesitation whatever in printing "Yahweh." But almost at the last moment I have decided with some reluctance to follow the practice of the French scholars and of Matthew Arnold (though not exactly for his reasons), who translate this name by "the Eternal," except in an enigmatic title like "the Lord of hosts.' There is a distinct loss in this, I fully admit; to drop the racial, archaic term is to miss something of what it meant for the Hebrew nation..." Moffatt, James. Pages xx-xxi. A major departure from the practice of the American Standard Version is the rendering of the Divine Name, the "Tetragrammaton." The American Standard Version used the term "Jehovah"; the King James Version had employed this in four places, but everywhere else, except in three cases where it was employed as part of a proper name, used the English word LORD (or in certain cases GOD) printed in capitals. The present revision returns to the procedure of the King James Version, which follows the precedent of the ancient Greek and Latin translators and the long established practice in the reading of the Hebrew scriptures in the synagogue. While it is almost If not quite certain that the Name was originally pronounced "Yahweh," this pronunciation was not indicated when the Masoretes added vowel signs to the consonantal Hebrew text. To the four consonants YHWH of the Name, which had come to be regarded as too sacred to be pronounced, they attached vowel signs indicating that in its place should be read the Hebrew word Adonai meaning "Lord" (or Elohim meaning "God"). The ancient Greek translators substituted the word Kyrios (Lord) for the Name. The Vulgate likewise used the Latin word Dominus. The form "Jehovah" is of late medieval origin; it is a combination of the consonants of the Divine Name and the vowels attached to it by the Masoretes but belonging to an entirely different word. The sound of Y is represented by J and the sound of W by V, as in Latin. For two reasons the Committee has returned to the more familiar usage of the King James Version: (1) the word "Jehovah" does not accurately represent any form of the Name ever used In Hebrew; and (2) the use of any proper name for the one and only God, as though there were other gods from whom He had to be distinguished, was discontinued in Judaism before the Christian era and is entirely inappropriate for the universal faith of the Christian Church." R.S.V. Preface Page 5 Yahweh is the acknowledged name used In the notes of the New American Bible. A Catholic version. One variation of this convention is of special importance, inasmuch as it affects the divine name. This personal proper name, written with the consonants YHWH, was considered too sacred to be uttered; so the vowels for the words 'my Lord' or 'God' were added to the consonants YHWH, and the reader was warned by these vowels that he must substitute other consonants. This change having to be made so frequently, the Rabbis did not consider it necessary to put the consonants of the new reading in the margin. In course of time the true pronunciation of the divine name, probably Yahweh, passed into oblivion, and YHWH was read with the intruded vowels, the vowels of an entirely different word, namely 'my Lord' or 'God'. In late medieval times this mispronunciation became current as Jehova, and it was taken over as Jehovah by the Reformers in Protestant Bibles. The present translators have retained this incorrect but customary form in the text of passages where the name is explained with a note on its pronunciation (e.g. Exodus 3:15) and in four place names of which it forms a constituent element; elsewhere they have followed ancient translators in substituting 'IORD' or 'GOD', printed as here in capital letters, for the Hebrew name." The New English Bible. Page xvi. "...I. The etymology: attempts have been made to explain the name Yahweh (abridged forms like Yaho, Yah etc. are found in both biblical and non-biblical texts) from various Hebrew roots but there seems little doubt that it is an archaic form of the verb 'to be'...." The Jerusalem Bible note on Ex. 3: 15. Yahweh is used throughout. "... The word Yahweh is a vocalization of the four consonants in the way many scholars think this covenant name for God was pronounced in OT times." The Zondervan Pictorial Encyclopedia Of The Bible. Vol. 5, Page 1021.
Ahhh, well thank you for your input - I didn't know you were also a theologian. However, would you please expand on this statement? Which early versions? NT or OT? Also, are you saying that the Creator of the Universe is not also Lord over it? I need alot of clarification here before I can counter such a broad statement.
If you continue on this line, I believe I will soon know just what brand of Christianity you hold to. :)
I think there is no doubt that God cares about the lives of the men on the Colts, and clearly the bible says God cares about all details of His children's lives, and his detailed instruction book for living proves it. He answers little prayers and big ones. If the desire of a player's heart is to win the super bowl, God is just loving and merciful enough to grant such a request, just as all blessings come from God (that's in the bible too).
Now, for your more existential question, is the Creator the Lord? Again, not in the fealty sense. The ultimate power? Sure. But the absolute controller of all events? I believe it is clear that freewill is a part of His creation. I also don't believe he tinkers in the outcome of the game of billiards I shot last night. Nor the Super Bowl. If you want to believe that he picked the Bucs last year, and that he just wanted a split college championship, and that he really, really wanted Reuben to win American Idol, fine. I'm not a Calvinist and I've not seen any textual support for that kind of view.
So, smart boy, what brand are you talking about now?
No, I am just AndrewC. You should heed your own advice and pay attention. I used the verses specifically to show that "lord" was present in the Bible, both New and Old testament. Now if you wish to quibble over whether KJV is a Bible or not or whether "the" or "and" are in the Bible, I will leave you to mumble to yourself over those arguments.
Proceeding on with the evidence that the word lord is present in the bible I will provide the link to the Hebrew word translated into lord. 'adown {aw-done'} or (shortened) 'adon {aw-done'}
The Greek word used is "kurios {koo'-ree-os}".
Before it said Adonai - that's right, not Adon - is said, in Hebrew characters, YHWH, which was not to be pronounced. It was/is a proper name, not "Lord."
No, I am just AndrewC.
Like your homepage, along with your multiple identities. AndrewC Since Nov 21, 2000 view home page, enter name: ~ About ~ Links ~ Contact ~ In Forum ~ Mail To ~ Return f.Christian Since Oct 17, 1998 view home page, enter name: ~ About ~ Links ~ Contact ~ In Forum ~ Return Macro evolution... is fantasy--- gore3000 Since May 10, 2000 view home page, enter name: ~ About ~ Links ~ Contact ~ In Forum ~ Return After some 8 years of battling Clintonites here and other places I grew a bit bored with the same old stuff, plus the battle was over, the US was a free country again. We were still in election mode though so I decided to pick a name which would show my views right off - Gore3000. The conservatives understood the joke right off, to the others I cannot bother explaining it. DittoJed2 Since Feb 20, 2000 view home page, enter name: ~ About ~ Links ~ Contact ~ In Forum ~ Return Dittojed has left the forum. She will be at designeduniverse.com JesseShurun Since Jul 7, 2002 view home page, enter name: ~ About ~ Links ~ Contact ~ In Forum ~ Return JesseShurun has not provided contact info. ALS Since Jan 26, 2002 view home page, enter name: ~ About ~ Links ~ Contact ~ In Forum ~ Return "the evolution believing atheist cannot find God for the same reason a thief cannot find a policeman ... goodseedhomeschool Since May 17, 2002 view home page, enter name: ~ About ~ Links ~ Contact ~ In Forum ~ Return
Not that you can answer.
Your insults don't help your argument. Check the Hebrew for Psalms 110:1 there are two uses of the l-o-r-d sequence of characters. One of them refers to God, LORD. The other refers to Lord, the son of David, Lord. The first is the reference to the name of God. Psalm 110
So you are Bertrand Russell?!
Again, you are simply repeating the words someone chose to substitute. Find an original Hebrew text and search for Adon or Adonai.
In any event, the most literal translation of the English word "Lord" will not come up with any word, Hebrew, Greek, or Aramaic, that means anything approaching the meaning of the feudal word "Lord" as that term was substituted in the KJV. Not even Adon, which is not the right word, means the same thing as "Lord."
I've already pointed out that Yhwh is the hebrew word for God, and the KJV was not translated by King James in 1611. There is no subterfuge here - clearly the Yhwh of the OT is Lord over the earth - he is Creator and Judge and says so. He is YOUR creator and judge. But Yhwh clearly demonstrated that He is sovereign over the earth as I also pointed out. Your tangent over the word Lord is a quibble, nothing more. The NT says Jesus is LORD many times and there is no dispute over the meaning of the Greek word. The NT manuscripts number about 15,000 and there is no doubt that it has survived virtually unchanged back to the earliest greek manuscripts, and few serious scholars doubt that the NT was completely written within one generation of the death of Jesus Christ (by 70 AD), not to mention the fact that there is no dispute over the dating of most of Paul's epistles such as 1st Corinthians (which has the gospel creed) which was written around 51 AD, less than 20 years after the Resurrection. No, in fact, the textual evidence is against you.
Now, for your more existential question, is the Creator the Lord? Again, not in the fealty sense. The ultimate power? Sure. But the absolute controller of all events? I believe it is clear that freewill is a part of His creation. I also don't believe he tinkers in the outcome of the game of billiards I shot last night. Nor the Super Bowl. If you want to believe that he picked the Bucs last year, and that he just wanted a split college championship, and that he really, really wanted Reuben to win American Idol, fine. I'm not a Calvinist and I've not seen any textual support for that kind of view.
God gave you a free will so that you can CHOOSE to love him. If He forced you to love Him, that would not be love, He desires that you freely give it. Otherwise it is not love. Love can't be forced. If you choose to disobey Him, He will let you, but you will be held accountable. Ever read Leviticus - God micromanaged the lives of the hebrews - down to the last detail. But this is the Age of Christ - those dietary and ceremonial and sacrificial laws were all abrogated by His atoning sacrifice and Resurrection, but the moral laws are eternal and still in force (10 commandments). Without Christ as our Savior, We all will be judged by a standard of perfection to the moral law which we all will fail. WE have all broken the 10 commandments (Jesus said, "Be perfect as your father in heaven is perfect" - that's the standard). Therefore, the only way to avoid being judged under the law is to put our faith in Christ who lived the perfect life for us and paid the penalty for our lawbreaking - out of love. When we trust Him, we are no longer under the Law but under Grace as God then imputes Christ's righteousness to me, or you, so that when God looks at you, He sees Christ. Christ is called Lord many times by Paul, Peter, others. He is also called the Messiah, Savior, First and the last, Alpha and Omega, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace, Lord of Lords, King of Kings, Great I AM, Redeemer of mankind, Creator of the Universe (John 1:1), Mighty God, Son of God, The Word of God, and many others. He is Lord.
The God of the bible is omnipresent and omniscient and ominipotent. That means He is everywhere and all powerful and all knowing. He is also all loving. Your wild speculatoins about what God cares about are silly. God cares about people and all activities that people participate in. If you are doing an activity that does not glorify God or is in contravention of His moral laws, then that is Sin. He has laid down certain moral laws and requires obedience.
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