The Rising Sea Dragon in Asia

All of their new classes, which they are producing at an unprecedented rate, are very modern, very sleak, employ stealth technology characteristics and are using state of the art electronics.

All of their shipyards producing all of those ships makes me feel like our parents and grandparents must have felt while watching Japan produce so many new ships prior to WW II.

You would be hard pressed to find busy ship yards like this here.

Thank you for posting.

China is evolving into a significant maritime nation.

This is a significant factor in becoming a world power (or a world threat)

ping

You are welcome.

The PRC is evolving...but unfortunately their government form has not. Their rise to world power is being accomplished using our money and the peasant labor of their people's. They have found an economic strategy that allows them to continue their marxistic policies without suffering the natural fate of the economic policies that go with it.

They have no intention of allowing thier people's to rise up...it would destroy their cash cow...except for the 10-12% who are on top. 10-12% in a nation of 1.2 billion is a large number, and can be used to put on an unbelievably good show whenever they want to impress American businessmen and politicians.

Anyhow, because of the nature of their governmental form, their world power status must be viewed by us as a threat. It is ideoligically diamterically opposed to our own and thus ultimately to our interests.

Best Fregards.

Yep. Lots of combat ships being built...we're naive if we think they are doing it, just 'cause.

The sheer number. 2 ships about as good as "Kidds", which we retired a couple decades ago. 4 ships about as good as "Perrys". 4 more Kidd-quality ships building. No aircraft carriers. Not covered in the article, a couple of fairly modern electric SS, and about 4 more building. About 100 modern combat aircraft, plans to import or build a few hundred more. Overall, 10-20 reasonably modern major combatants, with a total SAM count in the mid hundreds.

Meanwhile we've got 50 attack submarines so quiet the Russians can't hear them. 100 surface combatants equal to or better than the best they have, some with 4 times the firepower each. If every SAM in their navy hit an incoming US missile, they'd stop less than 5% of one salvo. Then we have with 1000 naval aircraft on a dozen supercarriers. Several thousand land based tactical aircraft. A hundred assorted conventional bombers with (alone) more missle firepower than their entire armed forces. Not to mention a dozen Tridents each of which can turn the entire country into a smoking irradiated ruin in less than half an hour.

The Chinese have the intention to build a real navy, one that can challenge us in the Taiwan strait. But they are just begining to enter the naval power sphere. Their navy is weaker than Indias. So is their air force. Japan's is better by a large factor. And none of those is even in our weight class. Only Russia's is, and only on paper because it is not really operational.

At one point in the article, speaking of carriers, it says the Chinese have "traditionally" relied on land based aircraft for strike against naval targets. This is a euphemism for not having any carriers. The reality is the Chinese air force has never conducted a land based strike against a major naval surface combatant. They've never hit any target that wasn't absolutely stationary. They've never shown they could even find one, in actual combat.

They are beyond green. Comparison with 1930s Japan, which waged a successful war against China for years, involving large scale use of modern airpower, before messing with us, is fanciful at best.

Are they trying to be a threat? Certainly. Is the sort of navy they are building one that Taiwan would have to worry about, 10-20 years from now, if the US didn't come help them? Yes. Is the sort of navy they are building, even as it will be in 20 years, the sort that could beat the USN, or even last 3 months against us? Not remotely.

A few things to consider:

1.) Back in the last '90s, a US Navy carrier battle group trained with their Russian counterparts in a simulated joint air-land-sea battle. This included carrier operations. The Russians had only ONE pilot that had ever landed on a carrier deck for real. The rest had only done it on land 'between the stripes'. It took that one pilot a couple of weeks to get the large majority of his fellow pilots to attempt a carrier landing in their SU-27s. After that, the pilots were still reluctant to do so, and would only conduct air ops during daylight hours under VFR rules. The Russians were completely amazed when, on their best day they unloaded their aircraft carrier of all 25 (I think it was 25) jets in just over 8 hours. 8 HOURS!!! For 25 jets. Then the Americans unloaded all 90 combat aircraft in 45 minutes. In the dark. Under tactical lighting no less. (Read as NVGs and IR lighting ONLY.) And to top it off, the Americans brought them all back in just over an hour. The Russian aircraft chose to land on shore, returning the following day, with landing ops taking over 10 hours. Let the Russians teach the ChiComs all they know about running a carrier. PLEASE.

The ChiComs aren't the only game in town when it comes to building new stuff. The DD-21 class destroyers are getting through the planning stages (finally), so that 'littoral' warship is coming. Included below is a rendition of it, as well as some more info.

There is an added level of stealth for this (and all vessels, tanks, aircraft, and structures) that will soon be employed forces wide. I won't be the one to spill it though.

The DD-21 Zumwalt-class Land Attack Destroyer replaces the DD 963 and FFG 7 Classes of destroyer and frigate in today's inventory. The DD 21 System will provide an advanced level of land attack in support of the ground campaign and contribute to naval, joint and combined battlespace dominance in littoral operations. The DD 21 will be a true fleet destroyer, capable of handling any mission that a Fleet commander might ask, from key wartime missions in land attack and undersea warfare to the equally important presence missions, noncombatant evacuations, escort, and diplomatic missions that have been closely associated with Navy destroyers for almost a century.

Like today's Arleigh Burke-class guided-missile destroyers, DD 21 will be a multi-mission ship, capable of providing forward presence and deterrence, and operating as a vital part of naval, joint and combined maritime forces to gain battlespace dominance in littoral operations. But unlike today's destroyers, DD 21's primary mission will be land attack support for ground forces. Armed with 5-inch/62 extended range guided munitions and 155mm Howitzers, the ship will provide naval gunfire support up to 100 miles inland. A land attack missile system will extend support between 100 and 200 miles. Tactical Tomahawk missiles will be able to reach targets from 200 to 1,600 nautical miles.

DD 21 will have the most advanced undersea warfare combat systems ever installed on a surface combatant. The ship's hangar will house attack helicopters as well as a system of unmanned aerial vehicles (UAV). In concert with other ships, DD 21 will contribute surveillance and force to establish and maintain local air superiority.

The DD 21 program emphasizes more than just improved offensive and defensive capabilities. Because DD 21's design will incorporate only the most advanced systems and materials on the market today, ships of the class can remain battle-ready with minimal maintenance and greatly reduced manpower. Design characteristics such as submarine-like survivability and a significantly reduced radar signature, achieved through a fully integrated topside design, will significantly expand the mission of the surface combatant.

As with previous destroyer designs, DD 21 will be focused on the key mission areas facing the nation and the Navy during its design phase. The Navy believes it needs a destroyer that is capable of exceptional performance in the littoral regions of the world and one that can provide significant support to forces ashore. As a result, DD 21 must excel in mission areas that include land attack and maritime dominance. DD 21 will provide an advanced level of land attack in support of the ground campaign, while contributing to naval, joint, and combined battlespace dominance in littoral operations. Given the large inventory of upgraded CG 47 and new DDG 51 Class ships that will be in the fleet by the time the first few DD 21 class ships begin to join the fleet after 2008, a robust self defense capability in air defense will be sufficient for this ship.

In terms of pure weapons systems and capabilities outside of area SAM defense, the Sovremennys are as good as or better than the Kidds. The new Type 052b's are better than Kidds and the Type 052c will be on par with Burkes. They are building the latter two classses at a rate of two ships a go.

They are also rapidly building a new class of SSN that is approximately the equivalent of a Victor III. not on Par with the Improved LA's or the Seawolf or Virginia's, but in the confines of the Formosa Strait os South China Sea...a threat nonetheless.

Clearly, our training and experience means that the actual use of the vessels will be no contest for the near future. And I point this out in the whole article, which you would have to click on the link to see the rest that includes that part.

The point is, the Chinese are involved in an unprecedented arms buildup. They are building multiple new, modern combatant classes and they are doing it using our trade dollars. They are going to be looking at extending power in their region, perhaps out to the 1st island chain, so their ioverall quantity and (backed up by land air) their quality does not have to be as good.

Anyhow, to negate them as nothing is a mistake. They are building these vessels to project power and their power projection will ultimately conflict with ours.

They are nowhere near a point of challenging our CBG's and AEGIS and SSN's...but they are clearly working on it. It is likely that they would have to have to depend on significant asymetrical warfare capabilities that we are unaware of for them to challeneg a CBG of ours...but they themselves have indicated that this is their aim and goal and they are clearly working towards it. That's the point of the article.

I stand corrected. China has, indeed, overtaken Japan as the second-largest GDP in the world, although very recently, particularly with the annexation of Hong Kong.

In validating your figures, however, I discovered some other interesting considerations. For example, Japan has a larger GDP than France and Germany combined. In addition, look at the powers arrayed against China, that is, the combined GDPs just of the "Coalition of the Willing". That is:

US 10.6T, Japan 3.7T, UK 1.5T, Italy 1.5T, South Korea 1.0T, Australia 0.5T, The Netherlands 0.5T, Taiwan 0.4T, The Philippines 0.4T, Poland 0.4T, Romania 0.2T, The Czech Republic 0.2T, Denmark 0.2T, Israel 0.1T, Singapore 0.1T, and various and sundry others, totalling over 21.3T.

Then, if you throw the "Axis of Weasels" together, you get:

Germany 2.2T, France 1.6T, Russia 1.4T, Brazil 1.4T, and other assorted misbegotten third-world hell-holes totalling about 6.6T.

Let's assume that the Europhiles are lousy and unreliable allies. This doesn't give the Red Chinese any warm and fuzzies, when they consider the forces arrayed against them.

Finally, India 2.7T, can be considered an implacable enemy of the Chinese, when the chips are down.

I agree that the Chinese of today are no more formidable than the Soviet Union was during its heyday. I remember being told for years that the USSR was every bit as powerful as the US was by the CIA. It came to pass, however, that the USSR was a basketcase. I don't believe that the CIA didn't know this; I believe they did know and misrepresented that facts for military appropriations reasons. The maintain that the same is true today.

Agreed. It will be quire some time before the Chinese can field any effective CBG. But do not underestimate them...they will likely have more sticking power towards it than the Russians did when their power and monies were failing.

The DD 21 is going to be an awesome system and the sooner we can begin bringing them down the ways the better. Following it up with the Air-defense crusier based on the same technology.

My entire point is that we have to maintain the advantage we currently have so no one dare assail us.

Right now, they are starting to nip at our heals and in the confinded spaces of the Formosa Strait or China Sea where such a confrontation is likely to occur, there is apt to be serious danger unless we maintain the advantage. We need to bring these new designs onboard ASAP and we could also take concrete steps to starve the ChiComm maw with more realistic economic policies towards such a potential agressor.

The Chinese are not yet a threat like the Russians, but then I think they would be a lot smarter than the Russians -- they've had a civilisation for at least 2000 years before the Kievan Slavic kingdom was formed. Confrontation may not be the best way.

Make that DIRECT confrontation may not be the best way

This is a significant factor in becoming a world power

Don't kid yourself, China IS a world power. The only world powers today are the US, Russia, China, the UK and France, with the latter two pretty dubiously added and both decreasing in importance. Japan and the EU are economic world powers. Australia, India and Brazil are regional powers with a strong possibility of becoming world powers in the next decade, well, at least India.

Pretty correct. China will follow a path of using economic and military muscle, but it won't be a brash kinda dumb bully like the Soviet union. The chinese are perfectly willing to wait a few generations and slowly move forward. Militarily they may not be a threat for a few decades. H***, in terms of naval power, we can take on the entire world -- we've got 13 aircraft carrier groups, the rest of the world has what, 12? And mostly aging, tiny fleets. China is a land power primarily and has always been. In terms of naval power, the Indians won't let them into the Indian Ocean which they consider to be theirsphere of influence while the Australians consider the Asian side of the Pacific to be their own playground. The North-western pacific is Japanese-American.

The Chinese navy is only good enough for sabre-rattling against Taiwan, though by the end of the decade it may be strong enough to invade Taiwan. China may never be a significant naval power, but remember that the Romans didn't have much of a navy compared to Carthage either so the Romans used their army pwoer -- tossing bridges from deck to deck and then sending troops across to do what Romans did best -- hand to hand combat.

Couple that with instituting an economic policy that does not continue to fund the Chinese expansion and growth...

Concur with Jeff's post #77. Just as Communist China's growing navy is only one aspect of its threat to the U.S. and free world, our response must be a multiplex strategy...not the simplex strategy of beefing up one service, the USN. Economic policy is key to this strategy.

Another item some on this thread are not considering when comparing navies; when Communist China decides to unleash its regional power projection, it will have done its utmost to tie down the bulk of the USN with other concerns.

It will not matter how wonderful our Navy is then. An unavaliable weapon is useless.

He was talking about WWI.

Saw it and replied to it in post 39. My bad for the miscomm.

The Chinese are not Romans. They are not going to win a battle for the Taiwan strait with grappling hooks and boarding parties.

They want a navy big enough to defeat Taiwan if we don't show up. That is what it is for. If it was also the equal of India's or Japan's, they would count themselves one of the major regional players off their landmass as well as one it. That is clearly what they are after.

They do not remotely have the base or the ability to challenge even one of those yet, let alone all of them, united and led by us. We could blow all four out of the water tomorrow without breaking a sweat. And that is not going to change, not even in 10-20 years.

What might change is US willingness to endanger trade with China, or go to war over Taiwan. That and a navy big enough to intimidate Taiwan is the obvious ambition behind it.

They might even be stupid enough to take on the USN, even if they think we will show - though the most likely way a clash might arise is if they think we won't, but are wrong. If a clash does arise, however, with the USN involved, the Chinese navy will be about as effective against our stuff as Iraqi armor was against M-1s and JDAMs.

For reading later.