Lawmakers Can't Arrest U.S. Job Shift to India to Lower Costs

Bloomberg ^ | 12/31/03 | Bloomberg

[WilliamofCarmichael]

"Not only are Indian companies a third of the cost, but they actually are better," Thibodeau said in a telephone interview from his office outside Boston. "It's really kind of scary."

Show me! Where's the proof? Why is cheating so widespread in India (and especially China) that GRE testing was canceled in 2002?. Cheating was especially bad in China and India for the Computer Science GRE. It's not just the GRE. It's everywhere.

Every time I see "they are better than us" BS I will post this.

You may not agree with Americans for Higher Education Reform but their links are to legitimate news organizations with stories covering widespread cheating in Asian countries.

http://www.aher.org/soaf_quick.php

Why haven't we heard of problems? We have. Freepers have posted their experience and read CIO magazine articles (cio.com). Then read the comments readers add to the articles. And keep in mind that the stampede offshore is still ramping up. Of course, not all Asians cheat.

BTW, in the pre-PC days of early TV (the John Cameron "Timex, takes a licking and keeps on ticking" Swayze days) I remember the annual stories of university students in India rioting because the universities were trying to keep them for cheating on finals.

So where's the proof that "they" are better? What's the real reason for offshoring?

"It's for the consumers," says Hillary Corpexec.

[oceanview]

large corporations aren't replacing any of the retirees, hell they are net dropping people from the payrolls, so why should anyone think that there will be some "hiring boom" because of retirements. the retirements are occurring now, and they aren't hiring replacement workers.

the 21st century business model for the large americans corporation is taking shape: profits in the first world, a very well paid executive class in the first world, patent and legal protections in the first world systems, every possible worker and job they can send to the third world will be sent.

[The Duke]

Oh, really? The typical small business owner that comprises my customer pbase requires face-to-face contact and an on-site presence in order to properly asses their business methods and address their security issues. Most of them wouldn't dream of dealing with someone who isn't even local much less an American citizen. What I do cannot be effectively done via telephone or website quesionnaire.

Oh, I didn't realize you were addressing "small business". In over ten years of trying I never found a means of constructively (and profitably) working with small business, so forgive me for assuming you were working with a different market segment.

In fact, now that I think about it, my customer base is largely multi-national/Fortune 1000 corporations.

However, my own business plan defines my job to provide that "local intereface" to customers, so that element isn't entirely missing.

Broadband satellite installations also require a physical presence. You can't offshore that, either. The follow-on services and products that the custoemr requires make for a profitable enterprise. No one's going offshore for that.

Well, that's only if your customer happens to be onshore. But as we all know the customer base is moving offshore, and when *they* need locals they won't be here in the US.

Do accept my wishes, however, that your enterprise is wildly successful. And personally I am all for protection of technology (and manufacturing) jobs here in the US because, quite frankly, I think there's more profit in it (and it's better for the country). However, if my profession is going to commit mass suicide by remaining unengaged in the political process then I'm not going to be one of the lemmings going over the cliff(!)

[Alouette]

What is also getting out of hand is how many companies want someone who can write VB, C#, C++, set up and administer a web server, then, a little later on, bring up a couple of file servers, and add them to the network. All while maintaining an Exchange server, and troubleshooting network problems.

And all for $15.00 an hour!

[RobbyS]

I mean the cost to the students. In the last fifteen years in Texas, college education has gone from almost free to a par with other states. When I ws at UT in the '60s I lived and went to school for two summer semesters and two full semesters, --fifteen months--of less than $1,800. That is maybe $6.000 in today's money. Next year tuition and fees along will be that much for just two semesters.

[The Duke]

So where's the proof that "they" are better? What's the real reason for offshoring?

The proof, as the say, is in the pudding. I am skeptical about some of the offshore talent, but I know firsthand that many of them are every bit as sharp as even the sharpest US technologists.

I've been a software engineer since '81, and have been involved in a broad range of challenging projects since that time. And I have no reservations at all about the highly talented team I've put together in Latin America. In fact, I have found their command of a wide range of cutting-edge technologies (and their professionalism) to be altogether impressive.

[oceanview]

the only way for the cost to the students to decline is for more government subsidy. at some point, the type of college educations typical in america makes no sense for an economy that is not employing new workers in tech or manufacturing. you don't need college for most service jobs, and many other skilled jobs can be learned through vocational training. let's face it, who needs a masters degree in mathematics to teach public school algebra or geometry or the basic sciences. college is becoming a "racket".

[oceanview]

if latin american and india have such "talent", why can't they develop these industries internally, why must we export Oracle to India 500 workers at a time, let India develop their own database companies.

[RobbyS]

Yes, but forty years ago colleges were no more than glorified teacher colleges, ag collges or academies. As for engineering, many engineers in the '40s and '50s had had no more than a cursory education, quite inferior to that offered at a place life Lehigh. Few of the pet engineers that my Dad trained for Shell oil--called field experience--had learned much in college and took years to come up to the level of my Dad, who was a farm boy with a sixth grade education.

[WilliamofCarmichael]

RE: Latin America.

Yes, I have no doubt. I've heard the same from a friend of mine who has done projects in South America.

I have experience working with H1B IT folks primarily from India years ago. Some were top notch, some were average, and some were not so good. Just like Americans.

I'm tired of seeing articles that imply or flat-out state that "they" are better than us. "They" being Indian and Chinese techies.

I didn't make up the stories about cheating and phony documents. I have no idea what percentage cheat and lie but it is bad enough to make some mainstream media report it and it has caused university testing and professional certification organizations to take action. Maybe hiring managers don't care?

What if cheating was so bad here that university testing and professional certification organizations had to take action? 24/7 coverage on ABCNNBCBS.

[The Duke]

if latin american and india have such "talent", why can't they develop these industries internally, why must we export Oracle to India 500 workers at a time, let India develop their own database companies.

I think the answers to your questions are pretty self-evident. They haven't become superpowers because their national histories have not been conducive to that. This, however, does not reflect on the potential of individuals who by circumstance of birth happen to live there.

And there is plenty of true innovation taking place all over the world today. In fact, many of those technologists can't work within the US because, by their measure, the US is not a "free country" ( ref. http://www.openbsd.org/crypto.html#people )

[oceanview]

well, at least we agree on that, if US corporate executives weren't so hell bent on sending these jobs out of the US and filling their own pockets with the cost savings, these countries would not on their own be able to develop these same industries which would compete with the US ones a lower cost profile.

[Noumenon]

Thanks for the kind regards. I should add that I define small business as those operations employing 100 or fewer people. As I state in the intro to the commercial section of my website, approximately 75% of all businesses in America have fewer than 20 employees. For businesses with fewer than 100 employees, that figure rises to 89%, give or take a few points. It is also true that the most creative and entrepreneurial segment of America's business community - the small business owner - is either under-served or almost completely ignored by the majority of information systems and services providers. They're not worth the trouble, you see.

And that suits me just fine. These folks are happy to see me and happy to pay me. I deliver what they need and I do this at a price that they can afford. As these business operations grow, I'm the guy they call when they want to scale up. It's a great market with virtually no real competition.

[nmh]

``Not only are Indian companies a third of the cost, but they actually are better,''

Just in case someone thinks they are not replaceable - THINK AGAIN! YOU ARE! It's been going on for atleast 15 years so CHANGE your jobs if you work in technology. Why wait till the last nanosecond and get laid off?

If you really do NOT want to change your job, then move to a country that is doing the outsourcing. Be aware though, you will have competition and may not get the job there.
Law makers cannot save your jobs! It is also not their role to require people to keep you in your profession.

[nmh]

"In 20 years, will there be any more US citizen engineers or programmers?"




Only the selected cream of the crop will survive.

[RussianConservative]

If I'm not going to be paid for my effort, then what is the value of that study?

Haahahahahaha you Americans just not get it...to understand thing you need to have been in Soviet Union, then you understand mentality of own elite who create you to Soviet image of worker. In Soviet Union, almost all jobs on same pay level. Engineer make almost as much as constructor on building site. So why be engineer? 1. Because it better then working in cold with hands. 2. for love of making something...but elites are happy they get great labor at almost zero cost.

Little saying to start to learn from Soviet Times: You pretend to pay us, we pretend to work.

[nmh]

No one is regulating you. Come on! Be responsible and sensible and prepare to do something else. You have the freedom to do whatever you chose but I hope by now you see this path as being a dead end and DO SOMETHING ELSE!

[nmh]

It has nothing to do with Bush or even a Demoncrat.

[WilliamofCarmichael]

RE: turnover

fortune.com reports in "Hang-Ups in India Call center backlash! India isn't the answer, say some firms," by Justin Fox. Dec. 22, 2003 Issue

"But call centers and back-office operations that offer real-time service need peak staffing in the middle of the Indian night, and many providers are already struggling with high turnover (upwards of 20% a year) among their urban, just-out-of-college workforce. As a result, Indian operators are beginning to eye older workers living in the provinces. Translation: Get ready for an even wider cultural and language gulf between workers and Western customers."

The article did not mention first year or not. I've read other articles that put the turnover at 35 percent. I didn't know about the older workers until I read this. I guess we ain't seen nothing yet.

At least India hasn't played the race card. I honestly do however expect hyphenated groups here to start screaming "Racism!" Maybe it'll become a hate crime to be upset with a call center employee "over there." Wherever.

[oceanview]

because you can't just "change your job" overnight into another profession with similar compensation. if I could be a lawyer tomorrow, I would, but there's that little thing about law school and the bar exam stopping me. the only readily available jobs that don't require re-education are low paying service jobs for the most part, that's why people hold onto their tech jobs until the last nano-second.