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To: ninenot
We are probably witnessing the greatest economic boom in the history of the world because of free trade. We are also witnessing the reversal of american and european power to asia, with the asian peoples being better off since all those jobs and factories are now transfering to asia.
3 posted on 12/28/2003 6:55:53 AM PST by waterstraat
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To: waterstraat
"Free Trade" does not cause economic booms.

Demand causes booms, unless every textbook on the topic is dead-wrong.

Demand is generated by two things: population (that is, the number of people) and available cash.

Since US factory workers will soon have no cash, the recession which your post seems to ignore (that's 2000-present in the manufacturing sector) will continue and get worse.

5 posted on 12/28/2003 7:03:30 AM PST by ninenot (So many cats, so few recipes)
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To: waterstraat
What the world is witnessing is NOT free trade. It is manipulation of trade by global socialists and the UN. China is considered a "least developed country" by the UN. They decided in Brussels in 2001 that least developed countries (lcds) should get preferential trade rules and aid from the United States to build their infrastructure and "decrease poverty". Everything that is happening in China is not because they are trading freely, but because the deck has been stacked by the WTO and the UN in their favor.

In the meantime, the US does not get the preferential rules, must give away tax dollars for "poverty eradication" under WTO rules and the Amercian citizen has lost his voice in government because the WTO now makes trade rules instead of elected representatives in government. There is nothing "free" about these events at all.
11 posted on 12/28/2003 9:04:29 AM PST by hedgetrimmer
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To: waterstraat; PokeyJoe; ninenot
All Zhao Rong's things fit in a duffel, which she stores on her bed with her stuffed bear. This is her personal space, behind the linen sheet that covers each bunk like a curtain....If Zhao Rong has dreams, she keeps them to herself. Asked about her ambitions, she said she doesn't think about her future. Asked whether she wants to have a family, she shrugged. Asked whether she was happy with her job, she said, "It's OK."

I suspect that even the chinese culture of duty to family will not overcome this despair. If the entire wealth and power of the world was to completely shift to China tomorrow, would Zhao Rong keep her nose to the grindstone?

While I don't think the future of American economic dominance is rosy, I also don't think the future of China is destined for unabated progress without some bearing failures in the wheels of superheated progress along the way.

12 posted on 12/28/2003 9:08:35 AM PST by sam_paine (X .................................)
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To: waterstraat
Biggest boom and biggest bust, all seem who side you on. When China strike out with war, what US do when no spare parts? But then US buy china crap only because China give US credit so in end it also own US and US will whore for China, as already does to Taiwan, to keep from collapse...how nice.
39 posted on 12/28/2003 10:40:06 AM PST by RussianConservative (Xristos: the Light of the World)
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To: waterstraat; Lazamataz; maui_hawaii; arete; Bush2000; Dominic Harr; NYC Republican; wardaddy; ...
"We are also witnessing the reversal of american and european power to asia, with the asian peoples being better off since all those jobs and factories are now transfering to asia."

Doubtful.

More than half of all state-run Chinese manufacturers are losing money. That's why Chinese banks are in such a mess, they've actually loaned out *money* to those Communists!

The advantage that the Chinese have, by the way, is *NOT* cheap labor, but rather, an artificially cheap currency that greatly benefits exporters at the expense of their own people.

Cheap labor isn't even "cheap," anyway. By the time a company has paid the bribes and complied with the red tape required for doing business in China or India, your savings on labor is down to a mere 20% to 40%, something that a simple swing in currency exchange rates can wipe out almost overnight.

And there is something else: automation.

The jobs that are moving to China are going there because it's easier to cut them off after they are outsourced than before.

And why will such jobs be killed? Automation.

We've got robots painting and welding cars, for instance. Every day that goes by sees more and more robots doing more and more manufacturing. Robots are even entering the service sector. In fact, robots are so cheap that even the Chinese use them, e.g. as Coke machines to sell soft drinks.

Cheap labor can't compete with robots. Even the Chinese recognize that fact when they buy Coke machines rather than pay some rural stoolie to stand around all day and night to take your money in exchange for the drinks in his cooler.

And if cheap labor can't compete with robots, and if robots are going to be more plentiful in the future, then China is going to wind up with a surplus of something (i.e. cheap labor) that no one wants or needs eventually.

And it isn't just our manufacturing and sales that are seeing automation's effects. Software tools automate more and more programming tasks for our business developers, too.

Another thing: this crying about the bogeyman of the day overtaking the U.S. is getting old. Back in the 1930's the papers cried that Germany was going to conquer us all. It was rubbish. In the 1950's the Soviets were going to bury us. Yawn. In the 1960's the British were taking over (Beatles invasion, anyone). In the 1970's and 1980's the Japanese were going to own us. In the 1990's and the 00's it's "the Chinese." Next year the papers will scream Chicken Little the Sky is Falling to India.

There is a pattern here: the papers scream that someone is about to beat us; the papers get proven wrong by time; the papers pick a new superhero and repeat their old claims again, etc...

Well, i've got news for you, Sunshine. No one is going to beat us at anything, anywhere, at any time. The papers are screaming about the last industrial war, the war for wages.

Well, if low wages were the be all and end all of Capitalism, then Nigeria would be the world's economic superpower due to its labor costs being one tenth that of China's.

Ain't gonna happen.

Nor can cheap labor compete with automation (that's the future, by the way). In fact, if you casually look around, the largest manufacturers in the world have the *HIGHEST* wages; Japan, the U.S., Germany, etc.

The U.S. Dollar will drop at least another 20%...the game of foreign countries artificially propping up the value of the Dollar is fast ending. Even China's Dollar peg will break, much to the relief of their impoverished people (whose 40% national individual savings rate will prove to be a prophetically good investment strategy when this event occurs).

With the fall of the Dollar, U.S. imports will decline. As more automation is established in the U.S., imports to the U.S. will again decline.

And as imports are replaced by domestic production (read: automation/robots), one is left to do their own math as to what will happen to our employment rate.

62 posted on 12/28/2003 6:49:01 PM PST by Southack (Media bias means that Castro won't be punished for Cuban war crimes against Black Angolans in Africa)
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