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Three Centuries Before Christ's Birth, People Celeberated 25 December, Archaeologists Claim
Independent (UK) ^ | 12-24-2003 | Dr David Keys

Posted on 12/23/2003 3:20:28 PM PST by blam

Three centuries before Christ's birth, people celebrated 25 December, archaeologists claim

By David Keys Archaelology Correspondent
24 December 2003

Archeologists say they have traced the origins of the first Christmas to be celebrated on 25 December, 300 years before the birth of Christ. The original event marked the consecration of the ancient world's largest sun god statue, the 34m tall, 200 ton Colossus of Rhodes.

It has long been known that 25 December was not the real date of Christ's birth and that the decision to turn it into Jesus's birthday was made by Constantine, the Roman Emperor, in the early 4th century AD. But experts believe the origins of that decision go back to 283 BC, when, in Rhodes, the winter solstice occurred at about sunrise on 25 December.

The event was preserved by academics on Rhodes or in Alexandria, and seems to have been passed to Caesar by the Hellenistic Egyptian scientists, who advised him on his calendrical reforms.

The date was chosen because the emperor seems to have believed that the Roman sun god and Christ were virtually one and the same, and the sun's birthday had been decreed as 25 December some 50 years earlier by one of Constantine's predecessors, the Emperor Aurelian. He, in turn, seems to have chosen 25 December because, ever since Julius Caesar's calendar reforms of 46 BC, that date had been fixed as the official winter solstice, even though the real date for the solstice in Caesar's time was 23 December.

Dr Alaric Watson, one of the British historians involved in the current research and author of the major book on the period, Aurelian and the Third Century, said: "Constantine's choice of 25 December as the day on which to celebrate the birth of his divine patron, Christ, must be viewed in terms of the tradition on which Aurelian had drawn and which may well have originated in the celebration of the winter solstice at Rhodes some six centuries earlier.

"Constantine clearly saw his divine patron, initially Sol Invictus but later Christ, in much the same way as Aurelian had done. The imagery of Christ, like that of the ruler cults of the Hellenistic and Roman worlds, owed much to solar theology."

Jesus's real date of birth is not known, although various different pre-4th century traditions and computations put it either in the January to March period or in November.


TOPICS: News/Current Events
KEYWORDS: 25; archaeologists; birth; celebrated; centuries; christmas; christs; churchhistory; december; godsgravesglyphs; origins
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To: Amelia
No I said he beat me to the punch Re: Mithras as a savior-god that resembles Jesus. Some of what he posted looked familiar but my source is not that site.

Indeed that site must have gotten it's info from elsewhere(including but not exclusively the books to which you referred)
81 posted on 12/23/2003 7:58:43 PM PST by Skywalk
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To: Ichneumon; Michael121
Okay, I'll bite: Where's the "attack" that you managed to see somewhere in the historical account?

I was wondering the same thing. Where were those growling dogs?

82 posted on 12/23/2003 7:59:46 PM PST by elli1
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To: Ruy Dias de Bivar
I'm still looking for a good detailed book on the Council at Nicea. Any suggestions?

Read Grant. Lol. Rundown of the facts. Constantine called the council to quell arguments within the Empire's biggest religion. He couldn't risk civil unrest that could put the empire in further straits than it was already in. He was holding an empire together by threads. He had to keep the military happy and the people from having any reason to rebel against him or put him down like so many Emperors before him.

That said, attendance was required and enforced - at least in the east. Of some 2000 bishops said to attend, only about 6 of them arrived from the west. The term "pope" didn't as yet exist as an office. Nor did the Bishop of Rome have any part in the calling of this council.. it was compelled by the Emperor. And no one was allowed to leave until matters were settled. Now, it's said that other matters were discussed. It's difficult to imagine getting that many people together and not having that happen. It rather seems unlikely you could shut them up. The issue they were called to address was the Arian issue over the nature of Christ vs that of God. Now, The majority liked pretty strict language that would box Arius in, while Constantine suggested looser language that tended to give Arius breathing room. Arius, it must be said, was pals with the Emperor; but was head strong and set on his postion. The double tongued nature of the loose language Constantine suggested only ticked off Arius. And when he blew up, the Emperor banished him.

The fun thing in all this that nobody wants too much light on is that Eusebius was an Arian, as were all of Constantine's closest advisors. And Constantine far and away preferred the Arians. Arius wasn't banished for heresy. He was banished for causing disunity in the Empire. Whether he was right, wrong or indifferent didn't much enter into things, just as it hadn't with the Donatists.

You should note that the Big crime of the Donatists is largely bunk. The truth paints a somewhat less attractive story. Under prior persecution Christian sects were ordered by the emperor to turn over their religious texts to the empire and to honor the pagan gods of Rome like any other 'good citizen'. Many of the sects did so. Donatus was at the head of the line to both decline to follow the emperor's directive and to call it for the sin it was amongst the others. This earned him the indignation of the majority and though he was right, he had to be silenced.

Constantine is credited as having put down Donatism; but, in truth it outlived him. Fact vs. fantasy. Donatus pointed out probably more than that. The roman religions didn't disappear or lose favor, they got a paint job and new names. Theodosius Made Catholicism an official religion and overnight, seemingly, the pantheon of gods for everything under the sun gave way to a pantheon of saints for everything under the sun. Instead of asking the god of dog bites for assistance, you instead would pray to the saint for dog bites. It didn't bother them that crafting idols was against the ten commandments. Nor was it a hindrance that according to scripture, dead people can't have anything to do with the goings on of the living. Regardless of whether they died righteous or evil.. a way had to be made to "keep unity" of the empire which meant inclusion. Thus the modern approach whereby Catholics find "objective truth" in all religions for sake of argument. The roman rites didn't dissapear, they just put on a new dress and pretended to be Christian. It kept the pagans happy with the new state religion that was all the rage. It kept some semblance of unity even if it had to be a lie to happen. And it ultimately led to Rome's bishop and followers defrauding the empire in Constantine's name later - thus the need for the fantasy side of the stories. In their lust for power, and piles of fruadulent documents to bolster their false claims, they goofed and included a fraudulent copy of the documents from nicaea. The Orthodoxers had the originals and rightly corrected the record. The fraud is web posted; but, nicaea has been fraudulently altered in many ways in order to paint a picture that simply was not so. I wouldn't limit my reading on the subject as I know of no single work that deals only with that issue personally. I also don't recommend not reading the Catholic versions. It's actually a good idea to read it and forget it, check your facts, then go back and read their version and compare. It's an eye opener.

83 posted on 12/23/2003 8:02:11 PM PST by Havoc ("Alright; but, that only counts as one..")
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To: Skywalk
Indeed that site must have gotten it's info from elsewhere(including but not exclusively the books to which you referred)

Do you have a better site? As I said, I found very little on the Ulansey site to confirm, and several things that contradicted the athiest site which had Mithra as another version of Jesus.

84 posted on 12/23/2003 8:15:20 PM PST by Amelia ("We have met the enemy and he is us." -- Pogo)
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To: Skywalk
Life, death, the afterlife, love, redemption, fatherhood, motherhood, sacrifice, rebirth and other "themes" precede all religeous teachings. They are in the collective unconscious. They do not belong to any one set of beliefs.
85 posted on 12/23/2003 10:02:35 PM PST by ffusco (Maecilius Fuscus,Governor of Longovicium , Manchester, England. 238-244 AD)
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To: Revolting cat!
Hey, you can't pick on Bat Boy anymore. He's a leatherneck now. ;)
86 posted on 12/23/2003 10:04:15 PM PST by Liberal Classic (No better friend, no worse enemy.)
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To: blam
But joking aside, how does one approach this question? Does one hold to strictly with the book as it is written, or do you test all things and hold on to the good? Christmas is a good thing by all accounts. On the other hand, did the disciples have a winter feast?
87 posted on 12/23/2003 10:17:52 PM PST by Liberal Classic (No better friend, no worse enemy.)
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To: #3Fan
Dec 21 is not Dec 25, innacurate calendars back then notwithstanding.

True enough. But Dec 24 or 25 is when you can see the that Sun is starting to come back North again. It's not deserting us! We're not going to freeze to death this Winter! Let's have a party!

88 posted on 12/23/2003 11:30:03 PM PST by Virginia-American
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To: blam
I can't recall anyone claiming that Dec. 25th is the actual date of Christ's birth. We don't know the exact date so we use Dec. 25th as the day to comemorate it.
89 posted on 12/23/2003 11:42:04 PM PST by BnBlFlag (Deo Vindice/Semper Fidelis)
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To: Ichneumon
It is not a direct attack, saying GOD does not exist and we have proof. It is not a direct attack saying Christ did not exist. It is just another little piece of the Christian puzzle being taken from the table.

NBC a few years ago, ran a show that was about the miracles in the Old Testament. Science tried to prove away through some explanation, those that occured. It was pretty lame. That Moses really didn't "part" the Red Sea. That at the time the Red Sea was full of "sandbars" and not very deep. That some anomaly of wind currents forced the shallow water to move "apart" in two directions, at the same time.

It is the small chipping away at any and all parts that make up Christianity. Archeologists said the supposed city that was Armageddon as was described in the Bible never existed. Yet it was found exactly as depicted.

I do not have tp punch someone to "attack" them. It can be more subtle.
90 posted on 12/24/2003 1:51:46 AM PST by Michael121 (An old soldier knows truth. Only a Dead Soldier knows peace.)
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To: Virginia-American
True enough. But Dec 24 or 25 is when you can see the that Sun is starting to come back North again. It's not deserting us! We're not going to freeze to death this Winter! Let's have a party!

Yeah, it would've been a reason to celebrate. But calculating Jesus' conception in the bible it comes to Dec 25, not Dec 21, even though due to innacurate calandars in the Roman period then the Winter Solstice may have been on the 25th. If we wanted to time the conception to the Solstice, we'd celebrate it on the 21st, not the 25th. Therefore it is two separate holidays notwithstanding they happened to hit the same day then.

91 posted on 12/24/2003 2:38:53 AM PST by #3Fan
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To: #3Fan
Actually someone touched on it above. The pagan ritual associated with the Solstice is not the shortest day of the year, rather the day when the sun can be seen longer during the day. It marks the end of the darkness...and the long cold march towards spring, warmth, and new crops.

The metaphor shouldnt be lost on Christians.

And I would think (although not a calendar scholar) that using todays calendar to figure anything date is not useful--because of it inaccuracies and adjustments made to it over the years. Dates in the bible would be based on the Jewish calendar wouldnt they?
92 posted on 12/24/2003 3:09:10 AM PST by Vermont Lt (I am not from Vermont. I lived there for four years and that was enough.)
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To: Vermont Lt
Actually someone touched on it above. The pagan ritual associated with the Solstice is not the shortest day of the year, rather the day when the sun can be seen longer during the day. It marks the end of the darkness...and the long cold march towards spring, warmth, and new crops. The metaphor shouldnt be lost on Christians. And I would think (although not a calendar scholar) that using todays calendar to figure anything date is not useful--because of it inaccuracies and adjustments made to it over the years. Dates in the bible would be based on the Jewish calendar wouldnt they?

Of course. The Israelites were reknowned for their knowledge of the stars. When I say that the Course of Abia ended on June 19, that is a calculation from the actual Israelite dates of the time and it's proabably more accurate than what the Romans had. So the Course of Abia ended on June 19, Zachariah couldn't travel on June 20 because that was a Sabbath, so his journey home would've started on the 21st. He was an old man so it would've been a 2 or 3 day journey, we're already up to the 24th. Allow a day for rest/conception and you get the 25th. Elizabeth's 6th month of pregnancy would've began on December 25, not December 21. No matter how you slice it, the Solstice is missed by 4 days, innacurate Roman calanders notwithstanding.

93 posted on 12/24/2003 4:57:43 AM PST by #3Fan
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To: Oztrich Boy
Thank You Freepers-God bless you one and all-- I mispoke
and am guilty of having misrepresented what Pastor Murray
teaches-- should have lef tit at Christ was concieved in
late Dec. The gestation and all but the Divine Father
were as common to man. Mr appologies to Dr.Murray,lest my
actions cause any to believe he teaches what he has not.
God has already forgiven me .I shall work to be more
careful that my yea be yea and my nay -nay.But I thank and
bless y'all for enjoying my screwup so much -the pleasure
is yours.
94 posted on 12/24/2003 5:05:11 AM PST by StonyBurk
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To: MHGinTN
Yes, exactly, He can drop in any place on the timeline with far more eaze than we can exit a freeway.
95 posted on 12/24/2003 5:43:27 AM PST by MissAmericanPie
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To: Amelia
Ulansey seems to be the foremost authority. He says:

like the other ancient "mystery religions," such as the Eleusinian mysteries and the mysteries of Isis, Mithraism maintained strict secrecy about its teachings and practices, revealing them only to initiates. As a result, reconstructing the beliefs of the Mithraic devotees has posed an enormously intriguing challenge to scholarly ingenuity. . . .

Owing to the cult's secrecy, we possess almost no literary evidence about the beliefs of Mithraism. The few texts that do refer to the cult come not from Mithraic devotees themselves, but rather from outsiders such as early Church fathers, who mentioned Mithraism in order to attack it, and Platonic philosophers, who attempted to find support in Mithraic symbolism for their own philosophical ideas. However, although our literary sources for Mithraism are extremely sparse,

What the athiests are spreading about Mithraism is a lot of bull fertilizer based on what Mr. Ulansey concedes is "extremely sparse" evidence. Mr. Ulansey himself seems to be rather eccentric and quite an enthusist for leftist causes and, for want of a better description, new age spirituality.

96 posted on 12/24/2003 9:16:55 AM PST by colorado tanker ("There are but two parties now, Traitors and Patriots")
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To: steplock
Why are you so upset at Blam? Its an interesting article and I didnt find it tried to discount or belittle Christian Christmas at all. Most of Christian Holidays are around the same time as Pagan Holidays..it probably seen as a good way to convert Pagans to Christianity..hence keeping certain Pagan customs such as the Christmas tree, yule log and even the Easter Egg (Ostera) Whats the big deal?
97 posted on 12/24/2003 9:21:30 AM PST by FeliciaCat
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To: FeliciaCat
sorry - should read " It WAS probably seen as a good way..."
98 posted on 12/24/2003 9:22:53 AM PST by FeliciaCat
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To: Skywalk
The pope wears a MITRE on his head.

Should he celebrate carpentry with a mitre box?

99 posted on 12/24/2003 9:27:19 AM PST by Doctor Stochastic (Vegetabilisch = chaotisch is der Charakter der Modernen. - Friedrich Schlegel)
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To: The_Pickle
...the winter solstice is a celebration of the Day when the Sun rises the latest and sets the earliest,...

Actually it's just the shortest day. Neither the latest rising nor earliest setting. Equation Of Time

The earliest sunset is about Dec 7 in the US and the latest sunrise about Jan 14. It has some latitude in its variation.

100 posted on 12/24/2003 9:32:39 AM PST by Doctor Stochastic (Vegetabilisch = chaotisch is der Charakter der Modernen. - Friedrich Schlegel)
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