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To: Bob J
By the way, is this a Defend Grover Norquist Website or a Defend the Republic Website? As Horowitz put it citing Conrad, where do you come down in the "betray your friend or your country" question? I'm sorry if your answers to these questions are neither simple for you or clear to the rest of us.
354 posted on 12/13/2003 1:13:21 PM PST by Trollstomper
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To: Trollstomper
By the way, is this a Defend Grover Norquist Website or a Defend the Republic Website? As Horowitz put it citing Conrad, where do you come down in the "betray your friend or your country" question? I'm sorry if your answers to these questions are neither simple for you or clear to the rest of us.

I see. The fact that I have a problem with people calling Grover Norquist a traitor makes me...a traitor. Nice, and illuminating.

To answer your question, this is a website where we discuss and debate conservative issues and ideas. Historically, it has been typified by no holds barred brawling at times. I've often referred to it as the Dodge City of the Internet.

Historically, it also has been a place where a debater loses his argument when he resorts to easy as hominems such as "racist", "nazi", or now, the popular "traitor".

Again, I ask you to show me where Norquist has knowingly betrayed his country. Does he engage in lobbying? Of course. He has been doing that, mainly through his organization "American's for Tax Reform", for decades. It's what he does, he rallies supporters, galvanizes opinion and then goes to the politicians best able to effect positive conservative changes in this country. To act surprised at this point that this is what he is doing is weird.

Did he set up an organization to improve conservative-Muslim relations and to educate them on conservative values and free markets? Yes.

Is it possible that a few of the bad guys slipped through and got a couple audiences with politicians, even the White House? Looks like it.

You keep mentioning how most of the II's funding comes from the middle east (bugga bugga!). You conveniently fail to include that on many occasions Norquist has stated that the majority of his funding comes from Qatar, hardly an enemy of the United States and one of the few middle eastern countries pushing Western style free market principles.

To put Grover Norquist at the head of some international conspiray to undermine the United States is simply ludicrous and smells of a witch hunt. Anyone that knows him knows he is one of the biggest conservative patriots this country has and he'd cut off his arm before hurting it.

We're mistakes made? Sure looks like it. Did Norquist handle it poorly, reaching for the race card? Probably. Has he thoroughly addressed the accusations? Not to my satisfaction, but I believe he must do so soon.

The bottom line for all of us Norquist apologists, as you seen to stereotype us, is we just don't see the benefit in laying what appears to be a tremendous national security screw up at his doorstep instead of spending your time doing what is necessary and taking positive action with the government agencies who can best fix it quickly and effectively.

Again, why make Norquist the scapegoat here? Who benefits if one the most successfull and influential conservative NGO activists, who also happens to advocate bringing moderate Muslims into the conservative tent, helping give them a voice in politics and educating them on Western/conservative principles, takes a header?

Here is info from the "about" page at the Islamic Free Market Insitute. I'm not member and not advocating it, but in the context of this debate it seems to me that everything Norquist has done is pretty much reflected in what they state they are trying to accomplish here. (Once again, I am not saying some of the bad guys didn't slip through the fence.)

Islamic Free Market Institute at a glance

There are more than five million Muslims in the United States. The American Muslim community represents one of the fastest growing segments of American society.

The Institute inspires and facilitates the development of grassroots Muslim political movements that are economically conservative. The Institute is a membership-based nonprofit, nonpartisan organization, founded in 1998 to initiate these goals:

Create a better understanding between the American Muslim community and the political leadership.

Provide a platform to promote an Islamic perspective on domestic issues (social and fiscal) to help enhance the Muslim community’s input in the decision-making process.

Cultivate and expand Muslim activists and mobilize the community at the state and federal levels on issues affecting the American Muslim community.

Run aggressive campaigns to help increase the American Muslim participation in the electoral process.

Introduce traditional American values to the Muslim community and traditional Islamic teachings and values to decision-makers.

The Islamic Free Market Institute is governed by a highly qualified body of directors, who are active in envisioning long-term goals and strategies.

Muslims in America Sharing Our Dreams, Our Values

More than 5 million strong, Muslims represent one of the fastest growing segments of American society. They come from all walks of life: doctors, business leaders, grocers, teachers, etc. They are part of the American social fabric, yet they are the most misunderstood citizens of the United States.

The Muslim community is composed of diverse people and viewpoints. Despite media stereotypes and widely held misconceptions, Muslims share many of the same values and beliefs with Americans of other faiths.

"(The Islamic Free Market Institute's) efforts to educate Americans on the true traditions and beliefs of Islam will help the relationship between all Americans and the American Muslim community." Newt Gingrich, former Speaker

Americans may be surprised to know that many Muslims believe in school prayer, low taxes, ending abortion, fighting crime and drugs, while being family and community oriented.

Making a Difference, Building Relationships

Located in the nation's Capitol, the Islamic Free Market Institute attempts to build relationships between American Muslims and the mainstream political movement in the United States.

The alliance between Muslim constituency and the fiscal conservative movement is realized through the Institute’s efforts to teach traditional conservative values to Muslims, and traditional Islamic beliefs to the public as well as political leaders and activistists.

With more than one million Muslims registered to vote, mainstream organizations realize the importance of including a politically active American Muslim community in the electoral process. The task of the Institute is to launch a campaign emphasizing the Muslim electorate in state and federal elections, while fostering enhanced relationships with elected officials.

"The Institute's work in spreading the importance of conservative principles and the Republican Party in the Islamic community is compelling and important." Jim Nicholson, Chairman of the Republican National Committee

"I..... commend the Islamic Free Market Institute on it's recent accomplishments on Capitol Hill which serves to educate members of Congress and benefit the Muslim community as a whole." Nick J. Rahall, Member fo Congress (D-WV)

The Islamic Free Market Institute: A Plan of Action

The Islamic Free Market Institute plans numerous activities to fully engage the Muslim community and members of the mainstream movement through:

Researching and mapping demographic trends within the Muslim community.

Mobilizing, educating and giving Muslims an active voice in the electoral process.

Compiling a library of scholarly works about Islamic views on social and economic issues including papers on free trade, monetary policy, banking, abortion, the Death Penalty and crime.

Commissioning analysis on a wide range of topics for policy makers pursuing active relations with Muslim leaders and potential Muslim candidates.

"Islam and Free Market (The Institute's first academic paper) should be read by all Americans who want a better understanding of Islam and economists.” Rep. Dick Armey, House Majority Leader

Establishing a network of think tanks, advocacy groups, political organizations and local community centers to expand activities and engage American Muslims.

Conducting overseas conferences on free enterprise and privatization between American leaders, businessmen and women to meet and exchange ideas with Muslim business leaders.

Organizing domestic forums to promote traditional agenda among American Muslim scholars through a series of conferences and forums in the United States.

Promoting the appointments of Muslims to positions of influence.

Establishing Muslim organizations in cities around the United States to serve as a catalyst in the development of traditional grassroots movements in the Muslim community.

*********************************************************

I don't see anything illegal, unconstitutional or nefarious here. If bad guys slip through, let's find them and fry 'em. I don't see a problem with Norquist attempting to bring traditionally conservative Muslims into the conservative movement and the political process.

If we don't you can be sure the Dems will.

356 posted on 12/13/2003 2:36:42 PM PST by Bob J (www.freerepublic.net www.radiofreerepublic.com...check them out!)
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