[Bob J]

By the way, is this a Defend Grover Norquist Website or a Defend the Republic Website? As Horowitz put it citing Conrad, where do you come down in the "betray your friend or your country" question? I'm sorry if your answers to these questions are neither simple for you or clear to the rest of us.

I see. The fact that I have a problem with people calling Grover Norquist a traitor makes me...a traitor. Nice, and illuminating.

To answer your question, this is a website where we discuss and debate conservative issues and ideas. Historically, it has been typified by no holds barred brawling at times. I've often referred to it as the Dodge City of the Internet.

Historically, it also has been a place where a debater loses his argument when he resorts to easy as hominems such as "racist", "nazi", or now, the popular "traitor".

Again, I ask you to show me where Norquist has knowingly betrayed his country. Does he engage in lobbying? Of course. He has been doing that, mainly through his organization "American's for Tax Reform", for decades. It's what he does, he rallies supporters, galvanizes opinion and then goes to the politicians best able to effect positive conservative changes in this country. To act surprised at this point that this is what he is doing is weird.

Did he set up an organization to improve conservative-Muslim relations and to educate them on conservative values and free markets? Yes.

Is it possible that a few of the bad guys slipped through and got a couple audiences with politicians, even the White House? Looks like it.

You keep mentioning how most of the II's funding comes from the middle east (bugga bugga!). You conveniently fail to include that on many occasions Norquist has stated that the majority of his funding comes from Qatar, hardly an enemy of the United States and one of the few middle eastern countries pushing Western style free market principles.

To put Grover Norquist at the head of some international conspiray to undermine the United States is simply ludicrous and smells of a witch hunt. Anyone that knows him knows he is one of the biggest conservative patriots this country has and he'd cut off his arm before hurting it.

We're mistakes made? Sure looks like it. Did Norquist handle it poorly, reaching for the race card? Probably. Has he thoroughly addressed the accusations? Not to my satisfaction, but I believe he must do so soon.

The bottom line for all of us Norquist apologists, as you seen to stereotype us, is we just don't see the benefit in laying what appears to be a tremendous national security screw up at his doorstep instead of spending your time doing what is necessary and taking positive action with the government agencies who can best fix it quickly and effectively.

Again, why make Norquist the scapegoat here? Who benefits if one the most successfull and influential conservative NGO activists, who also happens to advocate bringing moderate Muslims into the conservative tent, helping give them a voice in politics and educating them on Western/conservative principles, takes a header?

Here is info from the "about" page at the Islamic Free Market Insitute. I'm not member and not advocating it, but in the context of this debate it seems to me that everything Norquist has done is pretty much reflected in what they state they are trying to accomplish here. (Once again, I am not saying some of the bad guys didn't slip through the fence.)

Islamic Free Market Institute at a glance

There are more than five million Muslims in the United States. The American Muslim community represents one of the fastest growing segments of American society.

The Institute inspires and facilitates the development of grassroots Muslim political movements that are economically conservative. The Institute is a membership-based nonprofit, nonpartisan organization, founded in 1998 to initiate these goals:

Create a better understanding between the American Muslim community and the political leadership.

Provide a platform to promote an Islamic perspective on domestic issues (social and fiscal) to help enhance the Muslim community’s input in the decision-making process.

Cultivate and expand Muslim activists and mobilize the community at the state and federal levels on issues affecting the American Muslim community.

Run aggressive campaigns to help increase the American Muslim participation in the electoral process.

Introduce traditional American values to the Muslim community and traditional Islamic teachings and values to decision-makers.

The Islamic Free Market Institute is governed by a highly qualified body of directors, who are active in envisioning long-term goals and strategies.

Muslims in America Sharing Our Dreams, Our Values

More than 5 million strong, Muslims represent one of the fastest growing segments of American society. They come from all walks of life: doctors, business leaders, grocers, teachers, etc. They are part of the American social fabric, yet they are the most misunderstood citizens of the United States.

The Muslim community is composed of diverse people and viewpoints. Despite media stereotypes and widely held misconceptions, Muslims share many of the same values and beliefs with Americans of other faiths.

"(The Islamic Free Market Institute's) efforts to educate Americans on the true traditions and beliefs of Islam will help the relationship between all Americans and the American Muslim community." Newt Gingrich, former Speaker

Americans may be surprised to know that many Muslims believe in school prayer, low taxes, ending abortion, fighting crime and drugs, while being family and community oriented.

Making a Difference, Building Relationships

Located in the nation's Capitol, the Islamic Free Market Institute attempts to build relationships between American Muslims and the mainstream political movement in the United States.

The alliance between Muslim constituency and the fiscal conservative movement is realized through the Institute’s efforts to teach traditional conservative values to Muslims, and traditional Islamic beliefs to the public as well as political leaders and activistists.

With more than one million Muslims registered to vote, mainstream organizations realize the importance of including a politically active American Muslim community in the electoral process. The task of the Institute is to launch a campaign emphasizing the Muslim electorate in state and federal elections, while fostering enhanced relationships with elected officials.

"The Institute's work in spreading the importance of conservative principles and the Republican Party in the Islamic community is compelling and important." Jim Nicholson, Chairman of the Republican National Committee

"I..... commend the Islamic Free Market Institute on it's recent accomplishments on Capitol Hill which serves to educate members of Congress and benefit the Muslim community as a whole." Nick J. Rahall, Member fo Congress (D-WV)

The Islamic Free Market Institute: A Plan of Action

The Islamic Free Market Institute plans numerous activities to fully engage the Muslim community and members of the mainstream movement through:

Researching and mapping demographic trends within the Muslim community.

Mobilizing, educating and giving Muslims an active voice in the electoral process.

Compiling a library of scholarly works about Islamic views on social and economic issues including papers on free trade, monetary policy, banking, abortion, the Death Penalty and crime.

Commissioning analysis on a wide range of topics for policy makers pursuing active relations with Muslim leaders and potential Muslim candidates.

"Islam and Free Market (The Institute's first academic paper) should be read by all Americans who want a better understanding of Islam and economists.” Rep. Dick Armey, House Majority Leader

Establishing a network of think tanks, advocacy groups, political organizations and local community centers to expand activities and engage American Muslims.

Conducting overseas conferences on free enterprise and privatization between American leaders, businessmen and women to meet and exchange ideas with Muslim business leaders.

Organizing domestic forums to promote traditional agenda among American Muslim scholars through a series of conferences and forums in the United States.

Promoting the appointments of Muslims to positions of influence.

Establishing Muslim organizations in cities around the United States to serve as a catalyst in the development of traditional grassroots movements in the Muslim community.

*********************************************************

I don't see anything illegal, unconstitutional or nefarious here. If bad guys slip through, let's find them and fry 'em. I don't see a problem with Norquist attempting to bring traditionally conservative Muslims into the conservative movement and the political process.

If we don't you can be sure the Dems will.

[Sabertooth]

You keep mentioning how most of the II's funding comes from the middle east (bugga bugga!). You conveniently fail to include that on many occasions Norquist has stated that the majority of his funding comes from Qatar, hardly an enemy of the United States and one of the few middle eastern countries pushing Western style free market principles.

Qatar is like Saudi Arabia. They can be "allies" in some way or another, while sponsoring terrorism.

At the same time Qatar was funding Norquist and Saffuri's Islamic Institute, they were also contributing to the Palestinian homicide bomber fund...

The documents come in many flavors. They include Saudi-government accounting schedules showing the amount of money paid to individual Palestinians and their families, with the names of suicide bombers and others who carried out armed attacks against Israelis highlighted in yellow, blue and pink. They include correspondence between Yasser Arafat's Palestinian Authority (PA) and the Saudi government that discusses the payments. They also include a damning letter from the Saudis complaining that the Palestinians had exposed the secret financial ties by allowing the publication of a Feb. 19 report in the PA publication al-Hayat al-Jedida thanking Saudi Arabia for assisting the families of terrorists killed in attacks on Israelis. < -snip- >

Other foreign donors included the largest Muslim charity in the United States, the Holy Land Foundation for Relief and Development (HLF) in Richardson, Texas, whose assets were frozen in December 2001 on presidential order because of its alleged ties to terrorist groups.

The HLF frequently has been singled out by the Israelis as a major source of funding for Hamas. Last year, it raised an estimated $13 million, which it boasted of donating to charities in the West Bank and Gaza. HLF supporters, which include groups such as the American Muslim Council and the Islamic Association for Palestine, claim they merely are providing humanitarian aid for Palestinian families, much as the Saudis are doing today.

Khaled Saffuri, a former legislative director of the American Muslim Council who now heads the Islamic Institute in Washington, has met with top Justice Department officials several times since the HLF was shut down — including a private dinner with U.S. Attorney General John Ashcroft — questioning the breadth and manner of the FBI crackdown on Muslim charities in America. Saffuri openly boasts of his ties to the Bush White House and to top Republican strategist Grover Norquist, who cofounded the Islamic Institute four years ago.

In a meeting with Insight editors last week, Saffuri firmly denounced Hamas, Hezbollah and all other terrorist groups. He called for Arafat's ouster. Norquist, also present at the meeting, heatedly dismissed critics of his efforts on behalf of Saffuri and other Muslim leaders, some of whom have been tied to Hamas fund-raising efforts in the United States, as "bigots" and "racists spreading lies."

< -snip- >

Documents seized by the Israelis suggest that the substantial payments distributed to the families were a key element in recruiting suicide bombers. The one-time grants amounted to $25,000 per family from the government of Iraq, $5,300 from Saudi Arabia, $2,000 from the PA and $500 each from the United Arab Emirates and Qatar.
Sneak Preview
(documents Israel seized from Palestinian terrorist cells and governmental offices)
Kenneth R. Timmerman - Insight Magazine | June 10th, 2002

Interesting, isn't it, that Islamic Institute's Khaled Saffuri keeps finding himself associated with sponsors of homicide bombers in Israel?

Could happen to anyone, I guess.

[Trollstomper]

You write: "Did he set up an organization to improve conservative-Muslim relations and to educate them on conservative values and free markets? Yes."

No, he set it up run by and funded by radicals who are in jail or going to jail, per roughly 100 previous facts in this thread, Gaffney's article/s, etc. Norquist merely passed it off as "free market" and "moderate."

You variously refer to the subject Muslims as "moderate" and "conservative" and 'free market'. They are none of these, and the regimes they support and the causes for which they work, are socialist at best. E.g., one of the people Grover got into Austin was the former head of the Pakistani Communist Party. Another, Alamoudi, Saffuri's penultimate boss and mentor is funded, in part, or via actually, the Socialist People's Libyan Arab Jumahiriyah (trans. "state of the masses.) Some free market creds.!

"Is it possible that a few of the bad guys slipped through and got a couple audiences with politicians, even the White House? Looks like it."

No,again: they were not a "few" and did not "slip through" --- they were virtually the only ones brought in, and they were brought in the front door, starting in the campaign, by Norquist. The have not thus had "a couple of meetings," rather, they have had over 50 meetings at Cabinet, WH and subcabinet level. (I have not tabulated the congressional meetings in DC and district offices but they are not as connected, if at all, to Grover, and they are too numerous to count.)

"You keep mentioning how most of the II's funding comes from the middle east (bugga bugga!)."

No, again (did you always do this poorly at reading comprehension?). I, as Gaffney and myriad news organizations, and court documents and congressional testimony and investigations, have explained that the funding comes from Saudi-sponsored, government directed, front organizations identified by the US as part of "the largest ongoing terror finance investigation by the US anywhere in the world." (Not exactly "the middle east, bugga bugga"). I tire of retyping these things only to have you pointedly ignore them and recast them to lubricate your so-called argument. As I said, you are entitled to your own opinion, but not you own facts.

Re Qatar: As Sabertooth points out, Qatar, the only other officially Wahabbi state, plays against us at least half the time, e.g., sponsors al Jazeera, and hid and then exfiltrated AlQaeda oprations chief Khalid Sheikh Mohammed when the FBI and CIA went there to get him. (By the way, their registered agent is Nick Rahall's sister; and Saffuir et al contribute to Rahall, who is hardly a supporter of moderation in the middle east, or of this President/GOP.)

All the notes you cite from Armey, Newt, RNC, etc., were written by Grover and signed because he traded on his reputation while hiding these facts from those signers. Do you begin to understand here???? Years ago they had no reason to question him. You now do, but won't. None of them would sign those letters today.

Detail, a) Qatar only became the largest funder of Grover after 9/11, (I must again stress the earlier point that the majority, literally, of the seed money for the II came from terror-connected people and fronts that Saffuri knew were such and worked with and for since the 1980's), and b) this, along with the other foreign money, clearly -- in the law, and for certain -- makes the operation a "foreign lobbying entity" -- and this is a wholly different thing than ATR's normative lobbying on taxes, etc.

[The other point here is that Grover denied he took ANY foreign money until it was proven; he then lied about virtually all of it, for instance saying the Qatari money was for conferences and congressional travel. In a given year he recv'd over $600,000 from Qatar, and the congressional travel came to less that 20% of that (yep, I researched the records, just as you could). The in-country expensed were covered by the Qatari government and host institutions related thereto. So the rest of the money: in reality lobbying fee pass throughs. Welcome to the seamy side of Washington. ]

The problem lies in Grover not disclosing any/all of this, and to the contrary, representing it, in a purposely deceptive manner (which is also illegal, about which more in future news stories) -- to Congress and the Administration -- not to mention friends and associates in the movement, including myself -- as an "American Muslim community" operation. This is deceptive, deceitful, unethical, and illegal. Just as it is when he urges the movement on Weds, or a MC, to do something re internet regulation or taxation without saying that he, not just ATR, is being paid $150,00 a year by Microsoft (while,by the way, Grover claims in public that his only income is $120,000 from ATR) Lies. Lies. Lies. How many are too many for you? Or are they, like facts seem to be for you, only "lies" when they are convenient?

There is no way around this pattern of deceit and illegality and the fact that an actionable portion of it was clearly premediated, supportive of terrorism, and is ongoing -- and this is part of the exposure Grover has created for this President, whom by the way I fully support. This is the extent to which Grover has betrayed his country.