Posted on 11/13/2003 11:37:15 AM PST by yonif
Unhappy with route of security fence, Bush advisers pushing for deductions from $9 billion in loan guarantees to Israel (Reuters)
36% is "capture"? BWAHAHAHAHAHA!
GW received a paltry 21% of the Jewish vote in 2000. He owes them nothing. Cut the loan guarantees in half.
I suppose NJDC is some biased Arab source, huh? Now, in return, you tell me where you got your numbers which indicate that Reagan "captured" the Jewish vote.
You say I hate Israel. Hah! I don't hate Israel, I hate lies and the people who tell them.
Just like the above, I'll never hear back from you because you have no source, no link, no cites. It's just a lie. And when people point out your lies, you ask, "Why do you hate Israel?"
Just like, "Loan guarantees to Israel have a lot more to do with the war on terrorism than votes." What is that drivel? The U.S. has been providing foreign aid and loan guarantees to Israel since 1948. War on terrorism my a$$. You lie when you don't even have to lie.
"Why do you care so little about *AMERICAN* foreign policy objectives in the region?"
What??? I care a lot about American foreign policy onjectives. The question is, "Why does Israel care so little?"
The U.S. has objected to the 25 foot high concrete wall (oops, you would say that's a "fence", right?) that Israel is building, not on the Green Line, but miles into the West Bank. And Israel's response to the U.S.? Yeah, you got it.
No, it is not.
Now, in return, you tell me where you got your numbers which indicate that Reagan "captured" the Jewish vote.
I will concede that the article I read was wrong. I hope that satisfies you.
Just like the above, I'll never hear back from you because you have no source, no link, no cites. It's just a lie.
It was not a lie. It was my quoting an article without doing sufficient research. I have admitted I made an error. Having said that, Ronald Reagan in 1980 and George Bush in 1988 did better than Republicans have traditionally done among Jewish voters. Take a look at your graph. Reagan and Anderson got more Jewish votes than Carter who was perceived as pro-Arab after some questionable votes in the U.N. George Bush did horribly with Jewish voters the second time around after he held up loan guarantees to Israel in a dispute with Prime Minister Shamir over settlements.
George W. Bush was elected by the narrowest of margins in Florida and actually lost the popular vote. He became extremely popular in the Jewish community over his response to 9/11, the "Bush doctrine", the war on terrorism, and his support for Israel and closeness to Prime Minister Sharon. He is rapidly losing that popularity, probably much faster than his approval and poll numbers are slipping in the general population.
I know many Jewish Americans who traditionally vote Democratic. After 9/11 they were convinced the right man was running the country. I still believe that President Bush had a real chance to win the majority of the Jewish vote in 2004 if he had stayed with his original post-9/11 message and kept to his moral and unequivocal stance against terrorism. You will never convince hard core liberals to vote for him, Jewish or otherwise. Moderate Democrats, OTOH, were definitely swayed for a while.
And when people point out your lies, you ask, "Why do you hate Israel?"
First off, I didn't lie. Second, my question about why you hate Israel was based not on the one post, but a pattern of Israel bashing over a long period of time. You also seem to have no problem believing lies coming from the Palestinians.
Just like, "Loan guarantees to Israel have a lot more to do with the war on terrorism than votes." What is that drivel?
It's not drivel, but let me rephrase it so that you understand it. American loan guarantees are not altruistic. They are all about American objectives in the Middle East, and since 9/11 the primary objective in the Middle East has been the war on terrorism. In the past loan guarantees were there because supporting Israel furthered American objectives as well. For example, there was a time when Egypt and Syria were very much in the Soviet orbit. At that time it had more to do with the Cold War and having a foothold in the region. Still... it had everything to do with AMERICAN foreign policy objectives.
The U.S. has been providing foreign aid and loan guarantees to Israel since 1948.
To varying degrees, yes.
War on terrorism my a$$. You lie when you don't even have to lie.
I told the truth. I can't help it if you are too incredibly thick headed to have seen it. My point was that aid to Israel serves American interests. If it didn't there would be NO aid to Israel. The current interest is the War on Terrorism. What part of that do you not understand?
What??? I care a lot about American foreign policy onjectives. The question is, "Why does Israel care so little?"
Let's look at examples of how Israel "cares so little". Missles were landing around Tel Aviv during the first Gulf War and Israel just sat there and took it. Why? The American President asked them too. That's why. More recently Prime Minister Sharon had a clear policy of not negotiating with the Palestinians while under fire. He demanded calm first. That policy was abandoned. Why? The Bush administration asked (or pressured) him to do so. After first expressing deep misgivings about the Road Map the Israeli government then embraced it. Why? American interests again. Neither the Road Map nor negotiating under fire was popular in Israel or served Israeli interests. Indeed, negotiating under fire was the main issue Ariel Sharon used to club then Prime Minister over the head in the election.
The U.S. has objected to the 25 foot high concrete wall (oops, you would say that's a "fence", right?) that Israel is building, not on the Green Line, but miles into the West Bank.
Let's use your word. Let's call it a wall. I seem to remember a wall along sections of the U.S.-Mexican border. Is that wrong too? What about along the Israeli-Egyptian border? Israeli-Jordanian? Israeli-Lebanese? Are those all wrong?
I will remind you again that the Green Line is not a border. It is where armies stopped fighting in 1949. Even under the left-wing Geneva Agreement the Palestinians agreed that Israel would keep Jewish population centers in the West Bank in exchange for compensatory land in the Negev adjacent to Gaza. What part of that do you not understand?
And Israel's response to the U.S.?
Israel's response should be stronger than it is. How can any nation be prevented from protecting it's citizens? Should Israel just let suicide bombers waltz in to Israeli cities? The alternative is a full scale reoccupation of the territories. You prefer that? Tell me, if Americans were being blown up by terrorists crossing the Mexican border and a close ally told the U.S. not to defend their citizens, would you accept that?
Oh, and let me show you just how honest I am. I did NOT vote for Ronald Reagan in 1980. I was part of the yellow bar. I voted for John Anderson. I even worked in his campaign in Florida. I did vote for Reagan in 1984.
The rest we'll agree to disagree. But thank you for taking the time to post your thoughts.
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