The Facts About The Smoking Ban. If you're a business owner or not, this is a must read!

The Facts Online ^ | 11-01-03 | Dave Hitt

[SheLion]

Now $54.79 EVERYDAY for meals is a bit more than I care to spend.

Hahaaaaaaaa that's a HOOT! hehe!

[Eaker]

Good enough to get me back on your ping list???

;<)

[Gabz]

I had never given much thought to buffets before, until a waitress/bartender friend and I started discussing the subject a couple of weeks ago. One of my favorite places in Dover was a chinese restaurant that had a great buffet (and I always left a tip).

I think I also made a crack about TB and for that you have my sincere apologies.

Eight years ago a friend of mine contracted TB - he worked in food service at the local state college - he got it from another employee. Let me tell you - the cover up about that TB outbreak was unbelievable. The state is still denying that anyone there had TB, even though they hounded me and my husband for over a year about our TB test results - that they demanded we get. Because my husband tested positive the state insisted he go on a 6 month regimen of some drug - even though he had turned in his x-rays and paper work from the family doctor attesting to the fact he did NOT have TB. It finally took me going directly to the Secretary of the state health department to get them to stop harrassing him.

Of course the folks at public health were not happy with that turn of events - so they turned their sights on me. they insisted I needed to be retested because I never came back to have my test read. I had the copy of the negative results they had given me, but that wasn't good enough for them. I HAD to have another test, because I may have falsified the paperwork because they had no record of it. Although I was self-employed, at that particular time I was also working part-time in a law office and they actually sent a letter to the attorney I worked for.

In the end I truly felt sorry for these people. They were ticked off because of who I contacted to get them off my husband's back....you would think they would have gotten a clue to not push me. At the time, the attorney I was working for was on the governor's short list for a judicial nomination, plus I had already shown them I was not intimidated by their bureaucratic BS. Apparently one does not have to have much of a clue to get a job with Public Health in Delaware because these people kept after me.

The misfortune of the people of Delaware is this is the mentality enforcing not only the smoking ban, but all the health regulations in the state. I sure am glad I don't live there any more.

[Great Dane]

I don't know that they lied; but they certainly did get it wrong. I think they just waaaaaay overestimated the number of people who stayed away from bars/restaurants because of the smoke.

I don't think so, we have had a ban for over 2 years now, and I have only dined in town once, and that was under duress.

[Great Dane]

If you think smoking is a Constitutional right, that is your first problem.

Driving cars isn't a constitutional right either.

[Eaker]

That is $2.28 per hour for food and he thinks smokers have a problem!!!

[lockjaw02]

Good for you, I hope you enjoy no rights because you want no compromise. I would vote to keep the bans over having none. You lose people like me with your all or nothing positions.

That appears to be a little over-reaction to someone not agreeing with your proposition for smoking licenses, wouldn't you think? Phantom Lord wasn't being snotty with you, and he even identified some very valid points of the pitfalls of licensing schemes, and you come back with that kind of retort? He was 100% right that rights have been eroding. Anti-smokers took the gloves off years ago and are not willing to compromise. Put in smoking areas they said. Spend money for separate ventilation systems for smoking areas they said. Aw hell, forget about it, we'll just ban it all, they now say. That constitutes nothing less than governmental taking of privately owned property without just compensation.

Fact is that it's "people like you" who are asking someone else to take care of your problems for you. Smokers are not asking for accomodation. I could care less if places banned smoking on their own, and I've been in plenty which have done just that. I used to at least have at least one drink before moving on for more ameniable accomodations, but now I don't do that anymore since anti-smokers are now telling us it's all smoke-free or nothing wherever they can. Now I walk in and say how nice, but I have to move on. Do you think any the anti-smokers crying for smoke-free places should open a smoke-free place of their own or continue to whine loudly that the business owner who put his own capital and sweat equity on the line should have a law forcing him to do it?

Oh, BTW, I didn't know private property rights were up for votes, negotiations, and compromise, especially those that belong to someone else, not you. Zoning laws are excepted to keep some things like strip clubs out of residential areas, since property owners usually know what activities are allowable in the community before they purchase the property. But to take away rights is abominable. I don't know if you do own your own business, but it is very sad how it's mostly those without their own business to worry about who are so quick to vote for such restrictions on those who do.

[Gabz]

I post ACTUAL facts and you come back with studies????? you've got to be kidding.

And using anything with Stanton Glantz's name on it is bogus - he has publicly stated that if a study isn't coming up with the results he wants it gets scrapped (I'm paraphrasing)

The "studies" you provide from NY are from years before the TOTAL ban.

Where are the numbers from the casinos in Delaware since the ban went into effect there??? Of course you won't post them because they show you are wrong.

Where are your studies showing that businesses that were smoke-free by choice are being hurt by these ordinances and laws taking away the market niche they had created for themselves????

I have never stated that ALL businesses are hurt by bans - but you are so tunnel visioned in your anti-smoker glee that you refuse to acknowlege the fact that many businesses are harmed by them. Not bad management or bad food as you claim - smoking bans.

Some day I really hope you will wake up and actually look at the entire picture. You don't like smoking in a restaurant speak to the owner or open your own, don't go running to the government to force all businesses to cater to your wishes. That to me is like the parents of a child with a peanut allergy forcing the school district to prohibit any other child in the school from bringing a PB&J sandwich in his or her lunch box.

[Gabz]

Seems that the Delaware Restaurant Association SUPPORTED the ban on smoking. Sort of deflates your argument.

Actually it further supports my arguement because the DRA represents less than 400 establishments owned by less than 200 people - the vast majority of which are the big chains. There are more than 1700 restaurants in Delaware.

The only reason the DRA agreed to stop fighting the ban was because the bars were added to the ban. There are only 101 of them in Delaware. The small business man gets screwed again with the blessing of people like yourself.

I've got an idea: I don't know Florida politics and since you live there you may or may not. You don't know Delaware politics, but I have spent the past 20 years involved in it. You stop spouting crap about the Delaware smoking ban unless you have all of your facts and history correct and I won't discuss the smoking ban in Florida with you.

[hotshot]

I have homes in Fl & Del. I travel 250 days a year with a mobile business in a 36' triple slide 5th. wheel. The last meal I cooked was in the 90's. Last night the bill for dinner at the Longhorn on Abercorn in Savannah GA was $33.00 plus a $6.00 tip(wife&me). Breakfast even at Denny's is at least $12-15 plus $3 tip. I have not eaten at a fast food joint in months. I buy for my employees also. Sunday night I will be in Charleston, S.C. buying for my friends there. Then in Florida by Monday night. Sam Seltzers on 436 in Orlando here I come. You should not call a person a liar. I can afford to eat first class every day and I do. P.s. I can write it all off! Ever try Sam Seltzers in Tampa or Orlando or will it be Lobster Feist on 192 outside Disney?

[Gabz]

the state of Delaware enacted the smoking ban along with strong public and commercial support.

You have no clue what you are talking about when it comes to the Delaware smoking ban - NONE WHATSOEVER.

The truth of the matter is that the only reason it passed when and how it did was a demonRAT double cross on the GOP House majority leader by the retiring RAT Senate pro-tem.

There was no strong public or commercial support for this ban except from the paid out of state antis.

I worked this and I lived this and I lived in Delaware - I know exactly what went on. Please don't make declarative statements about things you don't know about.

[TheOtherOne]

That appears to be a little over-reaction to someone not agreeing with your proposition for smoking licenses, wouldn't you think? Phantom Lord wasn't being snotty with you, and he even identified some very valid points of the pitfalls of licensing schemes, and you come back with that kind of retort?

It is not an over-reaction, it is the truth. I live in Los Angeles and have many friends who smoke and it does not even bother me. I also travel often to NY and other cities. The smoking ban in LA is great. There is no loss of business on a scale people are claiming. (So those 'the sky is falling' claims are BS.) Did some go under, probably. (not under my plan they wouldn't) When I travel to cities with no ban, I realize how nice it is in Los Angeles. Here I am, a non-smoker, with no real problem with smoking, suggesting that any business that wants could get a license to allow smoking on the premisis. And I am the one with the unreasonable position? Lol, I get what I want either way. Many smokers insist on getting it their way or nothing. I merely said too bad, because people like me, who are on your side, will vote to keep a ban over elimiating it completely.

Many here are crying about a regulation - as though there are not regulations on all types of businesses and the like. If half of these people believed what they said they would fight liquor licenses and most other regulations. That is not what they are fighting, they are fighting the ban on smoking. Well, I think the government has the right to ban it - I just think it is dumb and that there is a middle ground that comes close to satisfying both sides.

Fact is that it's "people like you" who are asking someone else to take care of your problems for you.

Lol, hardly. And you want no government inspections of restaurants and no minimum sanitary regulations, etc. Well, sounds nice on paper - I prefer some government regulations to none.

[Gabz]

True you did not say you were anti-smoking - but your comments are the same as those of the anti smokers I encounter on a daily basis.

I disagree with you regarding the restaurants going out of business under smoking bans because of inferior product or service. First because I was speaking of both bars and restaurants. Second because I have witnessed what has happened to both where a ban has been implemented.

I have worked closely enough with many of the owners of these establishments for me to be shown their books. The losses I've seen have nothing to do with inferior product or service. When 2 similar establishments in the same jurisdiction both show the same type losses it kind of proves that point, doesn't it?

And then when I am also granted the same access to similar establishments in a nearby jurisdiction without the ban and see the increase in their revenues - it really says something.

I can only speak with first hand knowlege of the ban in Delaware - but I do know that businesses in Maryland are loving it.

[Phantom Lord]

I will have to disagree with you on 2 of your items. The bowling alley one seems a long shot to be the fault of the smoking ban. The closing was probably in the works for a long time. Banks don't just up and decided to buy a building, wrecking ball it, and build a branch over night. That had been in the works for some time.

And the all you can drink special may or may not be related to the smoking ban. It is not all that uncommon for bars to have a one price, all you can drink night. The bars I used to go to in Buffalo were only $5!!! $10.95 is highway robbery!

[Gabz]

Coach House Restaurant, Wilmington Del

How about giving ALL the relevant information of the Coach House????

You won't because you can't, because you don't know it.

Since I am familiar with the Coach House and have both eaten and spent time in the bar there I'll fill you in.

The Coach House did close because of the smoking ban - they were harrassed so badly by the smoke-snitches the owner decided it wasn't worth bothering with anymore, he had other business interests, so closed it and put it on the market for sale.

Because of the archaic nature of Delaware liquor license laws it was far easier for the purchasers to keep the name when purchasing the property and liquor license.

The last time I was in the Coach House prior to it's closing there was only one couple in any of the dining rooms. Every table and every seat in the bar area was full and all were enjoying the fabulous food.

On a Saturday evening the non-smoking dining rooms are empty, but the smoking permitted bar areas were packed. The smoking permitted bar areas didn't violate the state smoking ban because the space had been rented out by a private organization and anyone was welcome - as long as they paid the $1 membership fee to belong to the organization.

[Gabz]

Source of study, please...........

[Gabz]

It's a shame there hasn't been a story about the Maryland establishments that are close to the Delaware line - they are BOOMING!!!!!! But there won't be such a story, because the papers that do cover those areas already have editorial positions in favor of smoking bans and will never do a story that shows the harm the Delaware ban has done in Delaware or the good it has done in Maryland.

heck after the ban went into effect in Delaware most of the money my husband and I normally spent when we went out started going to Maryland. and let me tell you - those bartenders and waitstaff in Maryland LOVE the ban in Delaware.

I'm so happy I don't live in Delaware anymore.... But they are not rid of me. I'm only an hour away from the southern line and only 2 hours from the capitol. After being there for better than 20 years I've got too much history to just walk away. And my friends in the hospitality industry know I won't forget them.

[VermiciousKnid]

OK, I'll give you the bowling alley (maybe), though it seems awfully strange to me that a long-time establishment just up and decides to close two months after its leagues stopped coming. Who knows, perhaps the owner took this opportunity to retire instead of trying to slug it out with one arm tied behind his back.

But a BAR having an all-you-can-drink night on a FRIDAY? I've never seen that, anywhere, anytime. Tuesday? Yup. Wednesdays have traditionally been Ladies Nights. I've even seen specials on Thursdays. But not on Friday nights -- and it's not just one Friday. It's EVERY Friday, and still they struggle. These places should be bursting at the seams with a deal like that, but they aren't. In fact, they are nearly empty.

When I think of the rents the bar owners must be paying here on Long Island, I just can't see how they will be able to stay in business much longer. We've been lucky, weather-wise, with unseasonably high temperatures, but just as sure as God made little green apples, the weather WILL turn ugly, and people will NOT stand out in the whipping winter wind and snow to grab a smoke while they're trying to have a good time.

But I'll try to find out for sure what happened with the bowling alley (I have to go to their former next-door-neighbor's pet shop twice a week to buy, of all things, crickets to feed my kids' TOADS. Don't ask me how in the world I got talked into THAT one...).

Regards,

PS: I know two of the places named on this list -- one of them, The Finish Line, was a little place that generally catered to the Belmont Racetrack crowd. It wasn't my kind of joint, but it's a shame to see it go anyway. It was there for a very long time, IIRC.

[Legerdemain]

Driving cars isn't a constitutional right either

no, but you can't stop me from driving my car on my 500 acres I own....damn, you can't stop my 13 year old kid from driving there either.

[oldtimer]

Great post SheLion.

Dallas has lost a fortune in conventions and the restaurant business has been affected big time because of the nazi smoking ban.

I guess the libs that run the City will just have to raise taxes to make up for the shortfall.