- You are losing viewers, writers, readers and monetary support to LibertyForum.com and that's a fact Jack
There's your words, or our lying eyes. Hmmmm. Which do we believe?
Posted on 10/27/2003 11:53:33 AM PST by SJackson
Wednesday, August 13, 2003 at 13:41
Attack of the Nazi Trolls: A Lesson for Message Board Moderators
In a recent blog entry titled, "I've Been Red-Baited!", I wrote, "I'm not familiar with LibertyForum.org, but it appears to be an anti-Bush, anti-war message board with a distinctly anti-Jewish undertone."
A member of LibertyForum.org named Max Soldo (aka "thoughtcriminal") has responded by e-mail and provided further clarification of LibertyForum's political orientation. He writes:
This forum is a libertarian forum, and is devoted to the libertarian concept of unabashed free speech. With that principle in mind, most posters aren't libertarian as many fringe types have taken advantage of this policy (which includes a no-banning policy) to run amok...hence the preponderance of anti-Jewish posts on this forum.
All of this raises interesting questions for any message board moderator -- such as myself -- who has tried his best to allow a relatively high level of free expression. Inevitably, Nazi trolls find your forum and begin probing your defenses. If you allow them to post messages, they immediately spread the word to other Nazi trolls and soon your message board is infested.
At that point, all the normal people stop posting. It's a bit like when a fight breaks out in a bar and everyone stops talking and turns to watch the fight, transfixed. Suddenly, your message board becomes an arena for Nazi trolls and people arguing with Nazi trolls.
This is called "free speech."
I decided long ago that allowing Nazi trolls to occupy my message board and drive off everyone who does not share their idiosyncratic obsessions is a very poor method for encouraging "free speech." Therefore, I make frequent and forceful use of such allegedly un-libertarian methods as censoring and, when necessary, banning troublemakers, brownshirted or otherwise.
Apparently, the decision-makers at LibertyForum.org have adopted a different approach. As a result, their self-styled "libertarian" message board has become, by Mr. Soldo's description, a playground for non-libertarian "fringe types" to "run amok."
"It does get quite ugly at times, but that's the price one pays for sticking to one's principles," writes Mr. Soldo in a subsequent e-mail.
Well, if that's the price, I don't think I'm willing to pay it. I will add the sad fate of LibertyForum.org to my growing list of reasons for rethinking whether or not I wish to continue calling myself a "libertarian."
Although I endeavored strictly to confine myself to the statement of the facts observed, yet in speaking of the active Molecules I have not been able, in all cases, to avoid the introduction of hypothesis; for such is the supposition, that the equally active particles of greater size, and frequently of very different form, are primary compounds of these Molecules,-- a supposition which, though professedly conjectural, I regret having so much insisted on, especially as it may seem connected with the opinion of the absolute identity of the Molecules, from whatever source derived.
On this latter subject the only two points that I endeavored to ascertain, were their size and figure: and although I was, upon the whole, inclined to think that in these respects the Molecules were similar from whatever substances obtained, yet the evidence then adduced in support of the supposition was far from satisfactory; and I may add, that I am still less satisfied now that such is the fact. But even had the uniformity of the Molecules in those two points been absolutely established, it did not necessarily follow, nor have I any where stated, as has been imputed to me, that they also agreed in all their other properties and functions.
How very funny.
I post for awhile on libertyforum last year in response to one of your multipersonality Jew Haters who frequently accuses me of “controling” FR.
I posted on the other libertarian forum mentioned on this thread recently in response to a thread by the same multi-name, multi forum www worm making essentially the same accusations.
And it turns out the one forum on the internet that’s actually my site is your site. Is the ZOG dead? How do I sell my interest?
I find Jew Haters entertaining, I’ll respond to them when I feel they’re tainting mainstream Republican causes, the stuff that gets people elected. But as to waddling in their muck on the margins of society, pure entertainment I engage in as the mood strikes me.
I’m curious, there are a lot of supporters of Israel on FR, and yet you pings only Jews (SJackson; veronica; Alouette; yonif; dennisw; Yehuda) to your post. I hope you’re not suggesting there’s Jew hatred under that veneer of “anti-zionism” at the forum. That's nasty stuff.
I agree. But Nazi or commie, they're all fascists.
I don't see how FR could be losing cash to LF since John Deere doesn't accept donations.
Jewdar, gotta be Jewdar.
In spite of the assertions of you detractors, I believe you have your nation's best interests at heart. Always have believed this. Pushed the point home for years even when your former friends called you a thief and a liar and fraud. All a bunch of shit laid at your feet by disgruntled folk. Never participated in it, and did my best to reign it in when I saw it.
You and I don't agree about everything, but there's a difference between disagreeing and smearing. You've taken your share of abuse. (I know what its like)
I don't contest your dominion over your website. In fact I celebrate it. It's yours. You built it. You nurtured it. It is yours to do with as you please. You want to control the content.. that's your call. You want to make a few bucks, I personally think you deserve it. (I am a capitalist to my very core)... You want to toss conspiracy nuts and leftists out on their ass, more power to ya.
As you know, I disagree with your take on the best way back to a limited republic that protects inidividual rights. You think the pubbies are the way. For the life of me, I can't figure out why. They spend like liberals, they cave on social programs, and gun control, and actually sponsor intrusive legislation that erodes our legitimate rights. On this we'll have to agree to disagree. (you didn't always disagree... and in fact were once one of the most vocal opposition voices on FR). But times and circumstances change.
I'm not here to "harp on victimhood". I made a passing comment on a thread that I didn't even post. I talked about your past behavior. I stand by those comments. You did in fact encourage the more unseemly elements at FR, to find greener pastures on LF. Honestly it was a pretty smart move on your part. Get rid of the nuissances here, while giving FR folks something to point at and despise.
I don't think it's all that big a deal really. We'll get over it. But it does create a little bit of an unfair situation. LF gets characterized as a skinhead site by those who present the worst crap as characteristic of the website as a whole. You used to hate that when it happened to FR.
But be that as it may, the site is devoted to free speech, and will remain that way. Two websites, two philosophies. Censorship and control, versus free speech and open content.
One is easier (but in my opinion less rewarding, as it can only be devoted to truth as dictated by central authority).
The other is a harder road. You have to deal with real dissent.. muck-throwing kidney-punching nasty-ass dissent..
It isn't easy... but...
The truth doesn't need the support of authority..
As always, I wish you continued success.
"Smart" is hardly a word I associate with you.
"Spat", however, comes readily to mind.
Perhaps it is a mistake to give you the attention you so desire.
Hard to tell . . .
I welcome you to the forum on the other hand-- being a libertarian and all. SJackson just believe some anti-Americanism is more equal than others.
What are you serial halucinating about?
I already told you "Why ping you?"...I enjoy the entertainment value when I become part of the topic.
There, I said it again.
Maybe this time "it will take".
You forgot to add "self-governable versus laden with whiney cop-out excuses for poor performance."
There's your words, or our lying eyes. Hmmmm. Which do we believe?
However true that is, OWK has a strong point. He notes the very reason that made me look at LF: this place became home to rah-rah, ass-kissing sheep unwilling or unable to look deeper than the ever-vanishing differences the R and D machines spend their time and our money arguing about (to say nothing of the rabid attack dogs poised to spring on ME threads).
Say what you like about the assorted scum you'll find at LF, at least they've got the balls to say what they think without a moderator at the draw.
The actual scholarly sources of such speculation had been cultivated by those dedicating themselves to Christian moral principles.
These did take place in non-Christian societies. The casualties of American secular humanist education have been philosophically and spiritually emasculated to the point such disquisitions are impossible. Those who undergo the formal lobotomy do not even believe that "truth" is possible. Moral relativism merely opens the door to everything, including tyrants and genocidal political mass murderers.
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