Teen pulling prank killed by neighbor

The Palm Beach Post ^ | Sunday, October 26 | Sarah Eisenhauer and Cynthia Kopkowski

[xrp]

"How can they call that self-defense?" said a family member who asked not to be identified. "If they thought it was a burglar, what kind of burglar knocks?"

I don't think this guy should have fired his gun at a door knocker. What say you?

At 12:30am, if you are protecting yourself or your family you don't take any chances, sorry. That split second of warning instead of acting is all a potential attacker needs to take you (him) out and run inside and rape your (his) wife and children.

[G.Mason]

"Best to leave this one up to people with all of the facts."

Like the shot in the back?

[longtermmemmory]

sorry but the kids bad judgment is not reason to make the home owner guilty. This is the Palm (we want a revote 2000) Beach Post.

The kid intended to create an apprehension of harm to the homeowner. That apprehesion is enough for the homeowner. This is no different than if the kid used an unloaded gun. There is no way for the homeowner to know.

The prosecutor's office would be stupid to bring this case because the kid will be put on trial. Then again the palm beach juries found a gun make liable, and then after it was overturned ended up saddling the widow with a million dollar legal bill. Look for the same anti-gun lawyer vultures to decend. (BTW many of those same lawyers have CCW)

[NoControllingLegalAuthority]

Taking a gun to the door is wise. It's what happens next that makes all the difference. A lot of things can bring a knock on the door late at night. Some are threats and some are real emergencies requiring assistance.

One night my wife and I heard a car hit a tree outside. We actually ran out into the night and found a young couple needing help. They were not hurt and it turned out I knew the girl's father. We gave them a ride home.

[BlessedBeGod]

Anyone else find it odd that a high school is named after Pope John Paul II?

Since it's Catholic, not really.

[elfman2]

" Plain and simply, we do not know all the facts, yet.
Do we know if the kid was actually holding something in his hand(s)? No.
Do we know if words were exchanged between the two? No
Had the resident's home been burglarized in the recent past? We do not know."

After I got out to the Marines I had to drive across county twice with everything I owned in my car, sometimes sleeping in it. While on the highway, where anyone who bothered me would likely kill me, I slept with a loaded pistol. While sleeping in residential neighborhoods or parking lots, I put the gun in the trunk. I wasn’t going to blow away what was much more likely to be a small time thief or a kid misbehaving.

Depending on what was said/threatened by the dead kid, the homeowner may be technically within his rights. But even if the kid yelled “boo” of laugh maniacally, that’s not an immanent threat to the gun owner. Pranks happen. When taking on the responsibility of judge and jury, he should know that.

I don’t know the law here. What makes sense is that the same criteria for sentencing a person to death in court should apply to shooting someone in your home. I don’t think that it’s self defense if the odds are just 50/50 or even 90/10 that this was just a prank. I think that the shooter needs to be able to demonstrate that there was an immanent threat to his life or property beyond reasonable doubt. Otherwise, I think that the benefit of the doubt should run against him, and he should be made an example of to people who have no business owning guns.

[longtermmemmory]

palm beach post, no way this is the whole story.

their staff still says SElected not Election.

[BlessedBeGod]

The kid rang the bell and stood there waiting for someone to answer. That doesn't jibe with "playing knock on the door and run".

And if he was just standing there, how on earth did he get shot in the back? Too many questions.

[SBprone]

"Apparently, both the shooter and the deceased had bad judgement. "

Correct. But the shooter was an adult, and he is still alive to deal with the consequences of his brainless act.

His property, whatever it is, will go to pay legal fees and a civil judgement. Based on the info about his businesses I wouldn't want to be this guy's creditor. I hope this guy spends the rest of his life making payments on the judgement or restitution order.

[elbucko]

Part of the responsibility of owning a gun is the training when to use it.

Shooting someone in the back while fleeing is illegal

I agree. But you will find that some posters on FR believe that training is "infringement" and think the poor kid got what he deserved. Sad.

[longtermmemmory]

This will lead to a decrease in such juvenile pranks and real home invasion robberies.

[Dick Vomer]

I'm in Florida... am a Texan,

I think the homeowner is screwed. The guy should not answer the door if he was in fear and should have called 911 with a gun trained on the door in case the kid had tried to get in.

I don't know if you have the obligation to "retreat" vs some states that you can "stand your ground". Once your domicile is "invaded" then all bets are off. I think it depends on where the boundaries are drawn legally. What might have happened is that he answered and the guy came out and frightened him with an "accidental" dishcharge.(if the guy had his finger on the trigger). Forensics will come out in the trial. If the guy was pissed and shot the kid for waking him up.... well I'm thinking the guy should get a good lawyer. He'll need it.

I'm sure that the local bloodsucker has contacted the kids parents and are looking at the homeowner's umbrella liability policy to "ease their pain" and ...... line his pockets with a little 35-40% of the "take". Bottom line, is that night is going to be the worst one of his life. Killing a kid and ruining a bunch of lives. Really is kind of a sad story........

I have a CCW permit and that actuall puts more responsibilities on you than most liberals think. Especially if you are concientious and law abiding.

[JoeSixPack1]

...and he should be made an example of to people who have no business owning guns.

You must be thinking of a country that has no 2nd Amendment. Who are these "people that have no business owning guns" besides criminals who have had their constitutional rights aborted?

[Pharmboy]

You are correct. As a gun owner and a CCW for 20 years, that has to be the philosophy.

That being said, when you invade people's space with aggressive behavior for "fun" things like this will sometimes occur. That kid was not brought up right...I'm also guessing he was a bully.

[longtermmemmory]

was he fleeing? Was it lit? Was he turning to flee or was he reaching for a weapon? Did this kid have anything which could be mistaken for a gun/weapon? Was it a ring of the doorbell? Banging on the door? Did the kid say anything? (let me in NOW!) This article's information is incomplete.

Keep in mind too, the police did not take this man into custody. There is clearly more to this story than in the leftist palm beach post.

[FairOpinion]

There has to be more to this.

Let's see: 16 year old "kids" (who should know better) are "playing" "knock on the door and run" in the middle of the night.

The homeowner is sound asleep (or even if he isn't). He hears the knock, thinks for a moment, what is this? He gets his gun, walks to the door and opens it (poor judgment on his part, you don't open the door at midnight to any knocks).

BUT THE MAIN POINT: WHY IS THE "KID" STILL AT THE DOOR.
If he really just "knocked and ran" he would be two houses over by now, and when the homeowner opens the door, there wouldn't be anyone there.

The teenager was big, as the article said: 6'2", 210 lbs. These days there are a whole lot of violent crimes committed by teenagers. Many crimes are indeed committed by knocking, then when the homeowner opens the door, pushing their way in, and robbing the house, usually violently attacking the homeowner as well, even killing him.

As I said, the homeowner should not have opened the door, he should have sat facing the door with his gun, and if somone is breaking in, then shoot them. But once he opens the door in the middle of the night and find a huge guy 6'2", 210 lbs., standing there, maybe menacingly, maybe even trying to push his way in, what would anyone think, except that whoever is standing there is up to no good. Remember this is the middle of the night.

The article only presented ONE point of view, that of the "teenagers". Do "good kids" go around knocking on doors at midnight? How do we know they weren't trying to push their way into the house? Why was the teenager still standing at the door a minute or two later, when the homeowner answered the door, if he was just "knocking and running"?

[Harmless Teddy Bear]

Beyond that, something else doesn't add up about this report. The kid rang the bell and stood there waiting for someone to answer. That doesn't jibe with "playing knock on the door and run". Even other neighbors/prank victims reported they "found nobody there".

Coupled with the homeowener saying he saw someone he believed was holding a weapon and I agree with you.

I wonder if it was just a shadow or if the kid actually had something in his hand.

If he did then that changes everything.

[elfman2]

"You must be thinking of a country that has no 2nd Amendment. Who are these "people that have no business owning guns" besides criminals who have had their constitutional rights aborted?"

Try to control your jerking knee. Who said people have any business doing everything that they have a right to do. Do you have any business providing for 15 kids, owning an endangered species, managing a hospital, etc… If your think everyone’s currently able to responsibly managing a weapon, you don’t know people.

[Sloth]

If the guy feared a burglar, why did he open the door?

[cajun-jack]

sounds more like the kid had bad judgement to me