Is Terri Schiavo Dead? Eat, drink, and vegetate

Reason ^ | 10-23-03 | Ronald Bailey

[ambrose]

October 23, 2003

Is Terri Schiavo Dead?

Eat, drink, and vegetate

Ronald Bailey

Terri Schiavo has been in a persistent vegetative state since 1990. Her husband wants to withdraw the nutrition and hydration her body has been receiving and allow her body to die. Her mother, father, and sister—and now Florida Governor Jeb Bush—want to continue supplying her body with food and water until... what? She wakes up? Dies of pneumonia?

What is a persistent vegetative state? According to the National Institute for Neurological Disorders and Stroke people in PVS "have lost their thinking abilities and awareness of their surroundings, but retain non-cognitive function and normal sleep patterns. Even though those in a persistent vegetative state lose their higher brain functions, other key functions such as breathing and circulation remain relatively intact. Spontaneous movements may occur, and the eyes may open in response to external stimuli. They may even occasionally grimace, cry, or laugh. Although individuals in a persistent vegetative state may appear somewhat normal, they do not speak and they are unable to respond to commands." People suffering from PVS can generally be distinguished from afflicted but cognitively intact patients who suffer from "locked-in syndrome" by the fact that "locked in" patients can track visual stimuli and use eye blinks for communication.

According to most neurological experts, Terri Schiavo is definitely PVS—her eyes do not really track visual stimuli and she cannot communicate using eye blinks. However, Terri Schiavo's parents have posted several short ambiguous video clips online which are meant to show that Ms. Schiavo responds to stimuli. But what they show seems to fit an AMA's report of how PVS patients can respond to environmental cues without being aware. Specifically, the report notes, "Despite an 'alert demeanor', observation and examination repeatedly fail to demonstrate coherent speech, comprehension of the words of examiners or attendants, or any capacity to initiate or make consistently purposeful movements. Movements are largely confined to reflex withdrawals or posturing in response to noxious or other external stimuli. Since neither visual nor auditory signals require cortical integrity to stimulate brief orienting reflexes, some vegetative patients may turn the head or dart the eyes toward a noise or moving objects. However, PVS patients neither fixate upon nor consistently follow moving objects with the eyes, nor do they show other than startle responses to loud stimuli. They blink when air movements stimulate the cornea but not in the presence of visual threats per se."

Ms. Schiavo has been in this state for 13 years. What are her chances of recovering at least some awareness? Minnesota neurologist Ronald Cranford told the Washington Post, "There has never been a documented case of someone recovering after having been in a persistent vegetative state for more than 3 months. However, the journal Brain Injury reported the case, of a 26-year-old woman who, after being diagnosed as suffering from a persistent vegetative state for six months, recovered consciousness and, though severely disabled, is largely cognitively intact. However, it is generally agreed that if a patient doesn't become responsive before six months, his or her prognosis is extremely poor. A report on PVS by the Australian National Health and Medical Research Council finds that "patients in a state of post-coma unresponsiveness may emerge from it to become responsive," that "the probability of emergence becomes progressively less over time," and that "there is general agreement that emergence is less likely in older people, and in the victims of hypoxic brain damage." Terri Schiavo is the way she is because oxygen was cut off to her brain for 14 minutes; in other words, she suffered severe hypoxic brain damage.

So is Terri Schiavo still alive? The odds are way against it. It's time that her long-suffering parents and the grandstanding politicians let her go in peace.

[george wythe]

The neurologist has his license on probation.

If your daughter's life was on line, would you choose such a doctor to testify on your behalf?

If Terri is not in vegetative state, why not find two neurologists who would testify without creating controversy?

The neurologist presented by the Schindlers did not help the Schindlers' case at all:

In Greer's order, the Pinellas probate judge labeled Hammesfahr a "self-promoter," who testified that he had treated patients worse off than Mrs. Schiavo yet "offered no names, no case studies, no videos and no test results to support his claim."

In short, the judge wrote in the nine-page order, he needed "something more than a belief" that some new treatment could restore Mrs. Schiavo's faculties "so as to significantly improve her quality of life. There is no such testimony, much less a preponderance of evidence to that effect."

[tutstar]

Schiavo offered two neurologists with excellent credentials

matter of opinion........

[Xenalyte]

I thought she wasn't suffering, which is how y'all can justify starving her.

[Xenalyte]

Is your mother devout? The only way I got through to my devout yet right-to-die-oriented friends was to point out that it is not given to us to determine the hour of our own death. That one belongs to God, and it's beyond presumptuous of us to anticipate Him.

[Xenalyte]

Well? Several of us have asked you to explain how it is that if she's PVS and therefore not suffering, it's torture to keep her alive. Having a problem reconciling the contradiction, are you?

[george wythe]

Schiavo offered two neurologists with excellent credentials

matter of opinion........

You might like the credentials of the Schindlers’ doctors better, but you also have to consider that the Schindlers failed to provide the minimum proof required to prevail.

For the sake of argument, let’s assume that both Schiavo and Greer are the devil’s spawn, and you are a member of the appeal court, or the Florida Supreme Court, or the US Supreme Court who wants to help the Schindlers.

If the Schindlers’ expert does not introduce case studies, names, videos, test results or other standard evidence on the record, how can anyone rule in the Schindlers’ behalf?

The Schindlers might be completely right about their case, but apparently, they have had poor legal representation.

[Gringo1]

Ella esta muerta, pero por tus esfuerzos, ella sufre mucho. Ustedes deben permitirla morir en paz.

[RGSpincich]

Yep, Dr. H is all about HIS technique of restoring bloodflow to damaged areas of the brain. His technique will not repair dead portions of the brain, as in the Schiavo case. A self-promoter who is giving the Schindlers false hope.

[Gringo1]

When you good christianscan explain to me how you know what god wants, I'll explain how she is suffering.

Does god have a ping list, or do you guys get faxes or memos?

[Xenalyte]

We have the Bible. What does your god provide by way of direction? (I notice you cleverly evade the question yet again.)

[4Godsoloved..Hegave]

She gives all who know or meet her much joy. And she shows pride when she learns or repeats a new skill (such as “sitting”). Her value (besides being a person) is the joy she spreads and the skills that she pridefully accomplishes. She contributes and knowingly accomplishes – two things that make her life “worthwhile”.

Praise be to God, Diddley! You, I can see you are a proud grandpa and rightfully so.

Nothing like loving a precious one.

Your granddaughter sounds kind of like my dear son. He laughs with his whole body. What a blessing he is to us. If others can't see it, then they are the ones missing out!

[spunkets]

She was given verbal commands and performed appropriately. She hear's her father's voice and responds with the appropriate name-Dad. She's listening to some awful music and once her mother opens her mouth she smiles. Reason magazine should come to the conclusion that Mr. Bailey suffers from PVS. He can only give reflexive responses that indicate an inability to actually comprehend the subject and evaluate the evidence.

[Calpernia]

So are you saying Dr. Webber did examine Terri Schiavo?

quackwatch.org? Isn't that Dr. Stephen Barrett's site? Isn't he the same person that was listed at healthfreedomlaw.com with charges againest him for: trespassing; illegal influence of foreign government officials; filing false police reports; stalking; mail fraud; wire fraud; perjury; subornation of perjury; and extortion? Or is that another quackwatch.org?

[RGSpincich]

Which brings about the questions: Why did Dr. Webber not testify? Did he change his mind about Terri?

Precisely. When it came time to put up or shut up, he chose the latter. The appellate court fully expected him to testify and was somewhat mystified as to his absence.

From the 2002 appellate court ruling

On remand, this court anticipated but did not require that Dr. Webber, whohad claimed in his affidavit that he might be able to restore Mrs. Schiavo's speech andsome of her cognitive functioning, would testify for the parents and provide scientific ..support for his claim. However, Dr. Webber, who was so critical in this court's decisionto remand the case, made no further appearance in these proceedings.

[george wythe]

So are you saying Dr. Webber did examine Terri Schiavo?

No.

I'm stating the facts. The Marlins won in 2003, although the Yankees won in 2000.

I'm saying Dr Webber was given a chance in 2002 to join the Schindlers' team of doctors, but he passed the opportunity.

Since he had written such a scathing affidavit complaining about not having the opportunity in 2001, why did Dr.Webber not join the team of doctors allowed to examine Terri in 2002?

Did Dr Webber have a change of heart?

I don't know, and I would like to find out.

[Calpernia]

No. Actually we are right back to my original Dr. Webber post.

The court denied Dr. Webber the petition for examination.

So how could he testify on her behalf if he wasn't allowed to examine her?

[george wythe]

So how could he testify on her behalf if he wasn't allowed to examine her?

He was "denied" in 2001, not 2002.

The Yankees won in 2000, not 2003.

Do you need a picture or a flow chart?

[Calpernia]

Ok. The motion for denial is here:

The trial court summarily denied the petition for examination and 1.540(b)(5)motion. 800 So.2d at 643

Where is the motion approving him to examine Terri?

[Gringo1]

"Well? Several of us have asked you to explain how it is that if she's PVS and therefore not suffering, it's torture to keep her alive. Having a problem reconciling the contradiction, are you?"


Any more than any of you from the god squad can explain how it is good that she remains an end table, but bad that she be allowed to die.You offer no evidence that she isn't suffering, only the stupid argument that it is "what god wants"and "where there is life, there is hope" and endless streams of anecdotes and catch-phrases like that.

Your own contradiction is glaring to say the least.

[Xenalyte]

Once again your lack of comprehension does not disappoint.

My position contradicts nothing but yours. Kindly tell me how it's self-contradictory, which is what I guess you meant when you wrote, "Your own contradiction is glaring to say the least."

I believe that God is in charge. I further believe that even if He isn't, Terri left nothing in writing - all we have is the highly suspect word of her husband that her wish is to die.

So tell us how she can be suffering now, while being nourished, but how she won't suffer once she starts starving.

I shall await your reply anxiously.