Schiavo Case Could Cause Change In Law

TBO.com ^ | October 19, 2003 | DAVID SOMMER

[Pan_Yans Wife]

The portion of Florida's civil rights law that allows people to decide in advance whether they want to be kept alive through artificial means remains intact after a series of appeals in the case of Terri Schiavo. But legal scholars watching the case suspect the emotionally charged battle over Schiavo's fate will spur lawmakers to act to prevent such disputes in the future.

Those emotions reached a climax last week when the 39- year-old St. Petersburg woman's feeding tube was removed on court orders.

``I don't see that this case itself is in any way groundbreaking in terms of the law,'' said Joseph Little, a professor at the University of Florida's Levin College of Law. The fact that Gov. Jeb Bush got involved after receiving tens of thousands of e-mails from people who want Terri Schiavo kept alive, however, catapulted the case in importance, Little said.

``It could result in the governor or Legislature moving to change the law,'' the professor said.

Michael Allen, a professor studying the Schiavo case at Stetson University College of Law, said he has reached the same conclusion.

``I don't think the Florida statute known as the `right-to- die law' has been changed,'' Allen said. ``I think what the courts did in this case is that they resolved the he-said, she- said dispute the best they could. ... A lot of people think the way the judge weighed the facts was improper. It is just that the factual history is so dramatic.''

Circuit Judge George Greer has endured repeated criticism for consistently ruling in Michael Schiavo's favor in a more than five-year battle with his in-laws, Bob and Mary Schindler. Michael Schiavo contends his wife is in a persistent vegetative state with no hope of recovery and would not want to be kept alive with the help of a feeding tube inserted into her stomach.

The Schindlers contend their daughter reacts to them and could improve with therapy.

Debate Had Already Begun

Terri Schiavo has been unable to speak since January 1990, when at age 26 she suffered unexplained heart failure that cut off the blood supply to her brain.

At the time she fell ill, the Florida Legislature and the state court system were embroiled in disputes over how to honor the wishes of people who do not want to be kept alive by artificial means. The landmark case that helped shape the Health Care Advance Directives Law involved a Dunedin woman kept alive with a feeding tube.

Estelle Browning died of natural causes in a nursing home while the Legislature and Florida Supreme Court wrestled with the issues raised by her case. The 89-year-old woman had drafted a ``living will'' in 1985 to prevent doctors from taking extraordinary measures to prolong her life in the event of terminal illness, specifically including feeding tubes among those measures.

After a 1986 stroke left her unable to speak or swallow, a nursing home refused a relative's request that Browning's feeding tube be disconnected.

In September 1990, more than a year after Browning's death, the Supreme Court ruled that Floridians have the right to refuse medical treatment, no matter what the treatment or the prognosis.

The court also upheld a state law that said people who can no longer communicate need only to have told friends or family of their wishes not to be kept alive by artificial means, said George Felos, the lawyer who argued that Browning's written advance care directive, or living will, should have been honored.

Felos is also Michael Schiavo's lead attorney.

The Schiavo case hinged on Michael Schiavo's contention that his wife made statements prior to her illness indicating she would not want to be kept alive in her current condition. The Schindlers dispute that.

After a January 2000 trial, Greer concluded evidence showed Terri Schiavo made those statements. His judgment has been repeatedly upheld on appeal, and both the Florida and U.S. Supreme Courts declined to get involved, as has a lower federal court.

Changes Might Come

Because Greer has been consistently upheld, the Health Care Advance Directives Law stands as both constitutional and enforceable, Felos and the law professors said.

But, they said, the Schiavo case could result in efforts to change the law.

``Other states require much more explicit evidence of a person's desires - written evidence, for example,'' Stetson's Allen said.

And Brown said right-to-life groups could push to have the advance directives law thrown out.

Lynda Bell, spokeswoman for Florida Right To Life Inc., said the Schiavo case shows the advance directives law goes too far.

``The Schiavo precedent is a very dangerous one,'' she said. ``We need protective legislation to protect people from the so-called right to die when it is becoming a duty to die.''

State Rep. Frank Peterman, D-St. Petersburg, stopped by the Pinellas Park hospice where Terri Schiavo's feeding tube was removed Wednesday to express his support for the Schindlers.

Afterward, Peterman said he intends to raise the issue during the 2004 session.

``What we need to do is take a look at the provision of the law that talks about withholding food and water,'' Peterman said. ``It is not an issue if the person said this is what they wanted, but if you don't know [for sure], you ought to err on the side of keeping them alive.''

[Pan_Yans Wife]

This should have been done long ago, in my opinion. I hope and pray it will be possible to wake up the masses in Florida and have them act at once! Time is of the essence!

[honeygrl]

http://www.flsenate.gov/Legislators/index.cfm?Mode=Member%20Pages&Submenu=1&Tab=legislators

That is the link of the people to email that was given on the pulled thread.

[Pan_Yans Wife]

Exactly.

[Pan_Yans Wife]

THANKS!

[honeygrl]

Any idea which thread is the most active right now in giving updates? There really are so many that I have no idea where the people are that would post updates from those who are at the vigil.

[kancel]

>>The court also upheld a state law that said people who can no longer communicate need only to have told friends or family of their wishes not to be kept alive by artificial means, <<

This was just written to be abused by jerk-offs like Schiavo. Were the idiots who wrote this into law born the day before or what? I wish I had a pair of those rose-colored glasses they seem to see through.

[TASMANIANRED]

http://www.wvsom.edu/Welcome/WhatsNew/Coma803.html

http://abcnews.go.com/sections/living/DailyNews/miraclewoman991229.html

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2003/07/13/wcoma13.xml

http://www.stress-cocchi.org/Speculation2.htm

I am new to FR so I hope those links work.

The mind and soul are places that some Doctors only partially understand and others understand nothing of.

I have cared for patients that MD's swore were in a persistent vegetative state but I being the nurse taking care of them for 12 hrs at a time through the night could see there were times when they were lighter and trying to wake up.

In one tragic situation a 17yr old that had been run over by a truck, had both a brain injury from the vehicle and then brain injury from the hypoxia when his aorta ruptured and he bled out was responding to me. The ICU nurses had to take the MD to ethics committee to force him to start physical therapy. He continued to claim persistent vegetative state.

The boy had multiple fractures including his back that were never treated and by the time the full treatment for his injuries were compelled by the ethics committee his body twisted and broken from unset fractures healing improperly that he had minimal mobility. He woke up though. Although he didn't remember anything immediately surrounding the accident and his months in a coma he talked freely about forgiving the driver that hit him and then backed a truck over his chest and head because holding the hatred only hurt him more..

It is rare but people do wake up after years. Just because she can't communicate doesn't mean she doesn't know everything that is going on. It doesn't mean she doesn't know every word that is said in her presence.

The links are about people that have awakened after years in a coma.

[honeygrl]

"Although he didn't remember anything immediately surrounding the accident "

I think that is very common in people who are in bad accidents. A friend's mom was in a vehicle roll over and only broke her hip but seemed to go into shock or something and refused to speak for a while at all. She never did remember the accident or what happened right after. The last thing she remembered was driving and then being in the hosppital even though she was never actually unconscious.

[walford]

"'Speaker of the House, Johnnie Byrd to introduce 'Terri’s Bill'”

Yes I've seen the story posted on the other thread. Now I see that this is on the terrisfight.org site. There is still no mention of this from any other source. If anyone has confirmation from another source please post it.

Given that those who are trying to save her visit her only at the indulgence of those who want her dead, I'm very pessimistic about Terri's condition. When Michael Schiavo invited Gov. Bush to see Terri for himself this past Thursday, that made my blood run cold. He wouldn't allow such a visit unless Terri was properly doped, so she would appear as the vegetable that the media has been portraying her to be for years.

- Long-term dehydration/starvation
- Unknown pharmaceuticals administered in unknown dosages
- Court-ordered immediate cremation, no autopsy

What kind of 'sweet nothings' has Hubby been whispering in Terri's ear and what kind of effect would that have on her will to fight?
How much damage has been done already?
How much of Terri is there left to save?

[pc93]

--- In helpterri@yahoogroups.com, Tammy Nicholas wrote: > > --- TERRISHOPE@a... wrote: > > From: TERRISHOPE@a... > > Date: Sun, 19 Oct 2003 23:25:07 EDT > > Subject: THIS JUST IN "URGENT CIRCULATE > > THIS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! > > To: TERRISHOPE@a... > > > > I am rushing!!!! Heads up people. Mary just left > > Terri. Terri is STILL > > responding to her mother!!!!!! PRAISE GOD! > > Tomorrow there is a special session > > that Gov. Bush is going to attend and Terri's going > > to brought into it. Mike > > just called and said this is VERY HOPEFUL IF it is > > done in time. And for all > > of us to do everything we can at our end, to have > > them RUSH it as an emergancy > > secession!!! He said STAY ON THE GOVENOR as well. > > I also have got the > > Senator's name who we need to contact NOW and stay > > on!!! This is HOPE again > > People, if Terri can fight, so can we!!! They ask > > that we do everything in our > > power. So here's the info to contact the President > > of the Senate. > > James King > > E-mail king.james.web@f... > > (904) 727-3600 > > SunCom 841-3600 I have no idea what this # is > > FAX (904) 727-3603 > > Fax SunCon 841-3603 AND Keep reading... > > I need someone to help me find Rep. House Speaker > > Johnny Byrd Jr's email and > > FAX number. He is in Talahassee, Florida. He is > > staying up all night working > > on this and IS for TERRI, I have just called his > > office (850) 488-1450 but > > his voice mailbox is FULL, so I need his email > > addy... can one of you help, find > > it, circualte this with his email addy and fax if > > you can do that and find > > it, get this info out NOW!!!! PLEASE this is what > > we've been waiting for...PRAY > > PEOPLE PRAY.

[honeygrl]

I cleaned up the format on that email and linked to your post of it on this thread. :)

[Krodg]

Before authorizing the irretrievable disposal of a body by cremation, the Medical Examiner must be assured that no future question will arise about the cause or circumstances of the death of the individual.

They can't be assured of that one..

it also requires a positive determination of the initiating event of her demise

Of course, it's so simple!!....Michael won a large lawsuit claiming that Terri had suffered a heart attack after starving herself. For some reason Judge Greer has denied any attempt to enter evidence that might contradict those findings. This is positive determination?...right???

What irony...the very means to his money (her starvation) is also the means of her death (her starvation).

It is so scary for the parents that bring their lovely children into the world...to see them abused and murdered by the very people we entrust them to.......

[supercat]

What kind of 'sweet nothings' has Hubby been whispering in Terri's ear and what kind of effect would that have on her will to fight?

I have a very strong suspicion Terri wants to live long enough to see Hubby rot in prison.

[Coral Snake]

Actually the best thing for the "new little chippie" to do is OFFER TO TESTIFY in return for relocation to an "undisclosed location". ;c)

Prosicution thread going up tommorrow.

Guns, Linux and Liberty. ;c)

[emilynghiem]

Dear PYW:

Trying to get the whole law overturned invokes unnecessary opposition. The law can be corrected by strengthening it to prevent abuses by advocates or opponents on either side.

The common goal of right-to-life activists and opponents is the right of consent. I have never met people on either side who wanted their consent violated, and that is why both sides push for religious freedom and choice not to be under the policies of the opposing school of thought.

A better criteria would be to require consensus of all parties affected. And/or allow people to designate another percentage like 2/3 or 3/4 majority of designated parties.
Such a standard would prevent abuses by advocates on both sides without denying freedom to choose either one.

In the case of Schindler-Schiavo, the parents voiced their dissent, yet their religious freedom was denied in violation of Constitutional laws protecting all persons equally. Thus, the ruling violated other laws and was not proper. No law can be applied to violate the Constitution.

Denying the right of the family peaceably to assemble and to exercise freedom of the press in videotaping their daughter was equally unlawful by Constitutional laws, and nothing in state or federal statutes gave Michael Schiavo as guardian, or his lawyers or the judge, any right to impose such a directive. All such action is illegal under the First Amendment, which wasn't properly enforced here.

Regardless of how the legislation was written, none of the interpretations were lawful anyway. They all seem to have broken other laws already on the books.

Even if you believe that secular law makes it legal to let someone starve to death, the fact that this case permitted a person to be put to death on the testimony of one witness clearly violated Biblical scripture. It is unlawful for the family as believers in Christian obedience to civil and Biblical law to be ordered by a court judge, to "believe" in a court order that violated their Biblical standards.

By religious freedom, Michael Schiavo could argue that he did not "believe" his actions were "killing" or "murder" against the Schindler's beliefs (by interpreting what he was doing as legal, and not killing or hateful murder). But no one, not even he, can deny the *fact* that he was the sole witness testifying against her to cause her death, which is an undeniable violation of the Schindler's beliefs in Biblical law and obedience. So this argument would have been a better "rebuke" to overrule the court's ability to make such a decision against the Schindler's religious beliefs in obedience to Scriptural and civil laws.

Again, if equal consent of the parties, and their religious beliefs, becomes the standard for upholding and interpreting laws, nothing can be abused to deny or disparage the equal rights and freedoms of all parties.

Yours truly,
Emily Nghiem
Houston Texas
emilynghiem@hotmail.com

[emilynghiem]

Re: wish to see Hubby rot in prison

I found this comment disrespectful.

(1) I would not consider Michael Schiavo to be Terri's husband. He has forsaken his vows for another woman with whom he has started a family. She has been reclaimed by her parents, and it is that relationship that I respect by law.

If Michael disagrees, I would ask him to show me the contract that bound him. Then I would show him where he breached his contract to "forsake all others" and to love his wife in sickness. You cannot enforce a contract on others that you are not upholding for them. Thus it is void.

(2) Terri's family wishes no harm or ill will toward Michael. They have offered to pay him whatever amount of money he would have received from life insurance. They have wished the best for him and his new family. I doubt that they would have taught Terri to be hateful or vengeful.

I think Terri would also think more positive than negative.

(3) The family's absolute obedience to Christian teachings
on loving one's enemies, even those who persecute and oppress, is part of the reason they were subjected to such injustice. I am appalled that their faith in Christian obedience to civil authority was abused in this case. However, Christians are taught to be thankful if their obedience serves as a witness to truth, and persecution will make them stronger. That is fine to believe, but in the end, I should think that the point is to find out how to correct the injustices to prevent them in the future.

My solution is to raise the standard, requiring consent of parties in religious disputes under law. That way the religious freedom of all parties is protected equally. If this case had been governed under the rule of consent, all this nonsense could have been nipped in the bud.

If a joint solution were required, Michael Schiavo would not waste time trying to manipulate or hide facts, as he would know the Schindlers would never agree. The reason he tried to abuse the law to cover up, is that the court permitted one side to win over the other. If consensus were the standard, such tactics would only prolong the process and thus be discouraged.

This process could only work when both parties seek equal rights and freedoms for each other. The Schindlers never wished ill on Michael, but wanted to resolve this for the best. Thus, I believe Terri would think more like they do.

And that is why they are being honored and rewarded, as they have acted sincerely while Michael has not. This proves that in the end you get what you wish for yourselves and others equally. If you wish ill, that is what you reap.


Yours truly,
Emily Nghiem
Houston, Texas

[supercat]

Regardless of how the legislation was written, none of the interpretations were lawful anyway. They all seem to have broken other laws already on the books.

Right. Judge Greer needs to be impeached ASAP. Then Terri can have her case heard by an honest judge and the Schiavo Triumvirate can get investigated, indicted, prosecuted, and imprisoned.

[emilynghiem]

Thank you for your reply.

Since formal impeachment takes time, and in this case, a life was at stake, I recommend a better way to check the judge instantly.

On the website at http://www.terrisfight.org is posted an interpretation by Henry Titus on the separation of judicial and executive power. This is the Christian equivalent of asking for separation of church and state - or preventing the private beliefs of one party from being imposed unlawfully on dissenting members of the public.

People, including lawyers as officers of the court, and police as enforcers of the law under the Constitution, need to be taught this same principle. The judiciary must not authorize orders that would violate the Constitution, while police and governed citizens retain equal right and responsibility to ensure that laws are only applied and enforced, including judicial orders and directives, so as not to violate other laws under the Constitution.

Either the judge must correct his order, and/or the people governed by it must be careful to enforce and apply it so as not to violate other laws. In the case of Terri Schiavo, there was room in the court order to interpret it so as to allow Terri to be cared for. It was merely the ignorance of laws and rights, by the people governed, that has been preventing her rights from being protected.

Again, because there was hardly time to stop and educate each and every citizen, police officer, and lawyer in Terri's presence -- each fully capable of enforcing Constitutional laws to protect her rights -- the Governor had to intervene to prevent an imminent danger and irreversible injustice. However, in the future, I find it very necessary to teach this level of civil obedience and compliance, to prevent such entanglements from recurring.

I pray for Terri's health, that she not suffer any further or irreversible harm during the time it takes this problem to be solved. As her family has gone to extreme measures to be obedient, both to Christian and civil laws, I pray that their righteous prayers be answered so that all are saved.

Yours most truly,
Emily Nghiem

[emilynghiem]

Thank you for your reply.

Since formal impeachment takes time, and in this case, a life was at stake, I recommend a better way to check the judge instantly.

On the website at http://www.terrisfight.org is posted an interpretation by Henry Titus on the separation of judicial and executive power. This is the Christian equivalent of asking for separation of church and state - or preventing the private beliefs of one party from being imposed unlawfully on dissenting members of the public.

People, including lawyers as officers of the court, and police as enforcers of the law under the Constitution, need to be taught this same principle. The judiciary must not authorize orders that would violate the Constitution, while police and governed citizens retain equal right and responsibility to ensure that laws are only applied and enforced, including judicial orders and directives, so as not to violate other laws under the Constitution.

Either the judge must correct his order, and/or the people governed by it must be careful to enforce and apply it so as not to violate other laws. In the case of Terri Schiavo, there was room in the court order to interpret it so as to allow Terri to be cared for. It was merely the ignorance of laws and rights, by the people governed, that has been preventing her rights from being protected.

Again, because there was hardly time to stop and educate each and every citizen, police officer, and lawyer in Terri's presence -- each fully capable of enforcing Constitutional laws to protect her rights -- the Governor had to intervene to prevent an imminent danger and irreversible injustice. However, in the future, I find it very necessary to teach this level of civil obedience and compliance, to prevent such entanglements from recurring.

I pray for Terri's health, that she not suffer any further or irreversible harm during the time it takes this problem to be solved. As her family has gone to extreme measures to be obedient, both to Christian and civil laws, I pray that their righteous prayers be answered so that all are saved.

Yours most truly,
Emily Nghiem

[supercat]

Since formal impeachment takes time, and in this case, a life was at stake, I recommend a better way to check the judge instantly.

Obviously Terri's feeding/hydration had to be resumed before impeachment. My point is that impeachment should still happen ASAP to ensure that records are subpoenaed before they can be destroyed, and to ensure that she'll have a chance to have her case heard before someone other than Judge George Greer.

I know that removal from office takes awhile, but if Greer was impeached I don't think it would be too hard for Terri's parents to find a judge willing to disregard Greer's earlier findings.