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Common Creationist Arguments
http://www.stardestroyer.net/Creationism/Arguments/index.shtml ^

Posted on 03/08/2002 7:55:48 AM PST by JediGirl

Common Creationist Arguments

Religious Bigotry

"I pledge allegiance to the Christian flag, and to the Saviour, for whose Kingdom it stands, one Saviour, crucified, risen, and coming again, with life and liberty for all who believe."- Dan Quayle, participating in a modified Pledge of Allegiance at the "Reclaiming America" conference in Fort Lauderdale, Florida, 1994. Quoted from Eternal Hostility: The Struggle Between Theocracy and Democracy, by Frederick Clarkson. According to Dan Quayle and the other hate mongers at this conference, only those who believe deserve the right to life and liberty. I guess that means the rest of us can die in chains, just as we did in the Dark Ages.

Religious bigotry is at the heart of fundamentalism, and Christian fundamentalism is in turn the heart of the so-called "creation science" movement. In its various forms, creationist bigotry usually incorporates one or more of 3 basic premises:

  1. If evolution theory is wrong, then the only alternative is Biblical creationism. All dissimilar creation myths are invalid.

  2. The Bible is representative of all religious creation stories, and Christianity is representative of all "major" religions. Whenever someone speaks of "religion", "spirituality", and "mysticism" we should assume that he is talking about Christianity.

  3. Non-Christian beliefs are based on corrupted, immoral motivations, under the influence of Satan.

Every one of these premises is both indefensible and incredibly offensive, yet all of those assumptions are very common among creaionists, for whom it doesn't even seem to matter that their "scientific theory" would be the only theory in the history of science that requires faith in a particular religion.

Suggested Tactics

Educate Them About Other Religions. Some famous atheists have half-jokingly quipped in the past that "the solution to Christianity is education". While that may be a bit harsh, it is certainly fair to say that creationist misconceptions about the universality of their particular creation myth are best dispelled with information. Concrete information about the true beliefs of humanism (as opposed to the Christian fundamentalist strawman stereotype of selfish hedonists) and the specifics of other religions' creation myths (as opposed to the creationist assumption that they either follow Judaism or they're Satan worshippers) is the best way to break through a creationist's intellectual defense shield of xenophobia and religious egocentrism.

Examples follow:

"If creation theory has no independent basis, then why do all the world's religions have similar stories of the Creation and the Flood? Why do scientists insist on assuming that all of the world's religions are wrong? Evolution theory is nothing more than an organized assault upon religion."

This person confuses "religion" for "Christianity", by blindly assuming that every religion in the world is incompatible with evolution theory. In reality, many of the world's religions are quite compatible with evolution theory (some even provide support for it). Creationists who propose this argument are simply demonstrating ignorance of other religions. This is not surprising; throughout most of their history, Christians were not only reluctant to study other religions, but they actually tried to obliterate them by force, through torture, massacres, and destruction of cultural artifacts such as libraries and temples. Today, Christianity has generally improved upon its heinous past, and many Christians' value systems are quite similar to those of humanists. Such Christians no longer murder and torture "heretics", and some of them have even chosen to open their minds not only to science, but also to the richness and diversity of world history, as opposed to a narrow minded focus on European Christian history.

Progressive Christians tend to focus on Jesus' common-sense message of reciprocity, meaning that you should love your neighbour and treat others as you would have them treat you. This is known as the "Golden Rule", and while Christian egocentrics tend to act as though it is their exclusive intellectual property, versions of it are actually found in the ancient writings of virtually all the world's cultures. Of course, in order to live by this rule, they must downplay or refute the parts of the Bible which encourage intolerance and misogynism, sometimes by simply ignoring them and sometimes by arguing that the Golden Rule overrides them. The term "humanist Christian" is often thought of as an oxymoron, but that isn't necessarily the case; humanism and atheism are not synonymous. Humanism is about placing the good of humankind and the good of your fellow human above all else, and a humanist Christian could easily make the argument that the basic principles of humanism are highly compatible with the principles that Jesus tried to outline in the New Testament. However, unlike Jesus or God, humanism makes no value judgement on the basis of religion; it is equally accepting of Buddhists, Taoists, Christians, Hindus, Wiccans, Muslims, and others, including atheists. It is the only system of values which is so broadly inclusive, and therefore, it is the only system of values upon which governments should be based.

However, this means it is also anathema to certain Christians (read: right-wing fundamentalist fanatics), who have chosen instead to close their minds, cling to the past, and fight a seemingly never-ending propaganda war against science and humanism (some, like Pat Robertson, still defend the morality of Old Testament atrocities such as the slaughter of Palestinian women and children).

I remember once watching one of those "political talk shows" and seeing a Christian fundamentalist explaining that school prayer was necessary in order to introduce "spirituality" to children (for some reason, she felt it was necessary for the state to perform this function, rather than the parents). When queried about the obvious religious bigotry inherent in this approach, and its implications for religious freedom of non-Christians, she confidently replied that since all of the world's religions from Judaism to Islam to Christianity are very similar, sharing the same God, it wouldn't be a serious problem. And if they insisted on being difficult, they could always simply "opt out" (and in so doing, stand apart from the rest of the class, which is a great way to make a child feel welcome).

I remember being disgusted at her attitude and amazed at the fact that no one else on the panel seemed to take offense at her arrogance and bigotry. This kind of obtuse navel-gazing ignorance is a classic European cultural mindset which has unfortunately been adopted by many Americans (for example, they know the "yin/yang" symbol, but they have no idea that it is actually derived from the Taoist religion; they think it's just a "Chinese philosophy thing", or that it has something to do with kung fu).

I suggest that Christian egocentrists go to the library and borrow a book on the world's other religions before presuming to speak for them. There are billions of Hindus and Buddhists in the world, and none of them would want their children to feel like outcasts for not participating in school prayer to the Christian God. Hindus are even polytheistic, even though Christian egocentrists tend to believe that monotheism is somehow "more advanced" than polytheism (in reality, both monotheistic and polytheistic religions are traceable back to the dawn of recorded history). There are at least five different types of creation myth:

  1. Creation through Emergence: a pre-existing chaotic universe or netherworld gains form and substance in a gradual process. This type of creation myth is usually suggestive of slow maturation, or growth, as opposed to a single titanic event. The process might even be on-going and eternal (much like evolution). Zuni religious writings describe "unfinished creatures", slowly developing and growing "more manlike". Australian aboriginal creation myths describe primitive human-like creatures haphazardly forming out of plants and animal parts and then being moulded into finished humans by the gods. These types of religions (of which the American Navajo religion is yet another example) tend to emphasize the spirit of communion with the land and with the animals, since we came from them. This is a sharp contrast with Christianity and its past doctrines of human dominion over the animal kingdom.

  2. Creation through Birth: the Earth or the universe is quite literally born, either from a primordial mother or from two divine parents. The Aztec and Babylonian religions are examples of this type of creation myth.

  3. Creation from a Cosmic Egg: the universe hatches from an egg. This egg may be created by the gods, or it may be a god, or it may contain gods, along with the raw material necessary for the universe. The Chinese god Pan Gu was hatched from such an egg. In the Hindu religion, the universe was created through the breaking of a cosmic egg, which had shone as brilliantly as a sun and from which Brahma emerged.

  4. Creation by "Earth divers": the Earth is retrieved from primordial waters. It may be either retrieved intact or in pieces which are to be assembled by god(s). Many ancient central European tribal religions incorporated this type of creation myth.

  5. Creation by Supreme Being: a deity predates the universe. His power is absolute, and he creates the universe from his mind. Supreme deities are usually sky gods, for which the remoteness of the heavens generates awe and a sense of inscrutability among believers. Creationists invariably assume this to be the only type of creation myth.

"Let us break through some of the inhibitions that have existed to talk together across the flimsy lines of separation of faith, to talk together, to study together, to pray together, and ultimately to sing together His Holy name."- Senator Joseph Lieberman, speaking at Fellowship Chapel in Detroit while running for Vice President, Aug. 27, 2000 (like many Judeo-Christian bigots, he assumes all faiths share the same God). Quoted from AA News #808.

If you examine the world's various creation myths, you may notice a very interesting fact: many of them are more easily reconciled with biology and cosmology than you might expect. In fact, the "Creation through Emergence" story is startlingly similar to evolution theory, and "Creation from a Cosmic Egg" is strongly reminiscent of Big Bang theory. Moreover, a very common thread in various mythologies is the pre-existent chaos, in which a universe already exists before the "Creation" but it is formless and dark, and the gods merely take this pre-existing matter and transform it into the modern world. This is a sharp contrast to the creationist assumption that creation myths are all predicated upon a supreme being who creates the universe with a mere thought.

Does evolution theory represent an "assault upon religion?" Not necessarily. It does, however, represent the scientific conclusion that Biblical fundamentalism has no foundation whatsoever in logic and observation. Creationists interpret this as an attack against "religion" because they think they stand for all of the world's religions, despite their ideological differences and their long history of trying to wipe out those other religions.

"The only way to arrive at evolution theory is from a close-minded secular, humanistic mindset."

And why is humanism bad, particularly when we speak of science? Humanism, as it applies to science, is the notion that it is possible to understand the universe through the reasoning faculties of the human mind. It is part of the philosophical foundation of science! How can a legitimate scientific theory not be based on a humanistic mindset? The fact that a theory is "humanistic" is hardly a condemnation, but creationists are so accustomed to speaking of "humanism" in a perjorative sense that they instinctively assume everyone else sees the term in the same negative way.

The scientific method leaves no room for creationist nonsense. Scientists are supposed to confine their analyses strictly to the bounds of observation and reason. Scientists are supposed to assume that every phenomenon in the universe has a natural mechanism. Scientists are supposed to discount supernatural explanations for observed phenomena. That is the scientific method, in which all phenomena in the universe are grouped into those we understand and those we have yet to understand. There is no third option of supernatural explanations, nor should there be. If supernatural explanations were acceptable scientific explanations for all unknowns, then mankind would never have developed any science at all.

Scientists are often accused of being "close-minded" for doing this. The term "close-minded" has a perjorative implication, but it is a relative term. When we say that others are "close-minded", we usually mean that they are close-minded to whatever we're trying to push on them. Scientists are close-minded to the supernatural, but they are open-minded to observations and rational theories. Mystics, on the other hand, are open minded to mysticism, pseudoscience, and the supernatural, but they are close-minded to the scientific method. This contrast of competing philosophies is nothing new, but an increasingly large number of mystics want to upset the balance. They want to force scientists to consider supernatural theories alongside natural mechanisms; in effect, they want to destroy science by removing the scientific method and replacing it with the methods of mysticism.

"Evolutionists are just atheists who want to believe that there's no God so that they won't have to obey His laws, even though they know the truth, deep down. In fact, the decay of family values, the explosion of pornography, and the general decline in societal mores can be directly attributed to humanist teachings such as evolution theory and moral relativism, which basically encourages people to follow their own selfish interests instead of obeying traditional values and morals."

This is by far the most offensive, arrogant, insulting, and hateful creationist argument in existence: religious bigotry at its worst. If you are a religious person and you don't see what's wrong with this statement, then try asking yourself how you would feel if someone accused all Jews or all Hindus of being immoral and selfish. Try asking yourself how you would feel if someone assumed that all Buddhists were secretly Christians but were feverishly trying to deny the truth to themselves. Do you see the problem? This argument could simply be dismissed as fallacious, on the grounds that morality has nothing to do with the scientific validity of evolution theory. However, that would probably do little to silence the critics, whose attacks on evolution theory often start with this bizarre "moral argument".

"We're going to bring back God and the Bible and drive the gods of secular humanism right out of the public schools of America."- Pat Buchanan, at an anti-gay rally in Des Moines, Iowa, February 11, 1996 (it apparently doesn't occur to him that secular humanism is a philosophy rather than a religion, and as such, has no "gods", nor does it occur to him that in order to drive secular humanism out of public schools, they will have to abolish all science classses).

For some reason it is considered perfectly acceptable to hold bigoted views of atheists, particularly in America, where the flames of religious hatred are fanned daily by hate-mongers such as Pat Robertson and the rest of the so-called "right-wing fundamentalist movement". Religious leaders are fond of saying that atheism is every bit as much a religion as Christianity, Judaism, or Hinduism, in an obvious attempt to contradict the secular interpretation of atheism as an absence of religion. But if they truly feel that atheism is a religion, then why don't they treat atheists with the same religious tolerance that most of them preach for the "real" religions? Why is it acceptable to accuse atheists as a group of being amoral, or selfish, or hedonistic, or anti-family, or decadent?

If you listen carefully, you will find that anti-atheist hatred positively drips from the mouth of every preacher. Every minister. Every religious television show. If there is a modern Devil according to the fundamentalists, its name is secularism. Secularism is held responsible for everything from violence to divorce, rape, war, drug use, and any other imaginable social problem. It is the convenient scapegoat upon which every societal problem can be summarily blamed, without evidence or argument.

Atheists are Public Enemy #1 according to this mindset. If secularism is deemed responsible for everything the fundamentalists consider unpleasant or undesirable, then it's only natural to blame the members of this "cult": the atheists. It doesn't matter that there is no statistical variation in the crime rates between atheists and Christians. It doesn't matter that atheists are actually less likely to divorce than Christians. All that matters is that atheists think differently, and the persistent Crusade mentality of the fundamentalist deems all other systems of thought to be targets of enmity, hatred, and if possible, obliteration.

The historical fact is that these religious zealots are throwing stones from glass houses. The history of religion is anything but a noble one, and the union of church and state (which is what the creationists are pushing for, with the agenda to insinuate their religion into the schools) has invariably resulted in widespread oppression and human rights violations. In fact, the union of church and state continues to cause such problems today, as seen most dramatically in the resurgent Islamic fundamentalist governments of the Middle East, where women are being stoned to death for committing adultery or trying to find work. See the Religion and Morality page if you're interested in knowing more about this subject.

"You cannot produce one conclusive piece of evidence to prove the theory of evolution, yet you deny creationism! You are clearly being dogmatic."

This argument is sometimes accompanied by gratuitous publicity stunts, eg. there's at least one person offering a reward for anyone who can produce a piece of scientific evidence which he regards as conclusive proof of evolution. However, the basic premise falls apart on three levels.

  1. It implicitly assumes that if evolution theory cannot be "proven", then creationism wins by default. This is a false dilemma fallacy (artificially narrowing the choices). Even if you refuse to accept the overwhelming evidence for evolution theory, who's to say that the Earth must have been created in six days by one supreme being? Why six days? Why the one specific god described in the Jewish Bible? Why couldn't it have been created through a collaborative effort by many gods in a pantheistic religion? Why couldn't it have been created by the universal energy described by Taoist-style religions? Why couldn't it have been created by the pink unicorn? Why couldn't Earth itself be a god, as described in some of the "Earth mother" religions? Christians have a nasty tendency to forget that theirs is not the only religion in the world.

  2. It demands "proof" of a scientific theory. However, the act of demanding "proof" merely betrays ignorance of scientific methods. Unlike mathematical theories, scientific theories are not "proven". Competing theories are judged on their consistency with observation, and the best theory wins (science itself is an evolutionary process in that respect). If science demanded absolute "proof" of theories, then we wouldn't have any theories at all. Even the theory of gravity can't be "proven"; it can only be shown to be consistent with observation.

  3. The person who makes this argument sets himself up as the sole arbiter of any evidence that comes his way. He doesn't want to let "qualified biologists" judge (no surprise, since they won't produce the conclusions he's looking for), nor does he explain exactly what would qualify as conclusive evidence. By using himself as the arbiter and refusing to describe the proof he's looking for, he deliberately sets an impossible standard.

"I have a standing offer of $250,000 to anyone who can give any empirical evidence (scientific proof) for evolution. My $250,000 offer demonstrates that the hypothesis of evolution is nothing more than a religious belief."- Kent Hovind (notice how he doesn't realize there's no such thing as "scientific proof")

After being pressed for a full explanation of how to collect the $250,000 reward, he clarified his position: "In order to collect the money you must 'Prove beyond reasonable doubt that the process of evolution (The universe came into being by itself by purely natural processes (known as evolution) so that no appeal to the supernatural is needed.) is the only possible way the observed phenomena (the universe, planets, life and mankind) could have come into existence.' If you want everyone to pay for this silly theory of evolution to be taught then the burden of proof is on you."- Kent Hovind. Notice how he thinks evolution theory deals with the origins of the universe rather than the gradual change of biological structures (gross strawman fallacy), and also notice how he thinks a valid scientific theory must be the "only possible" explanation for a phenomenon (gross misrepresentation of scientific method). In reality, a valid theory is the one which most closely fits the facts, and Occam's Razor is used as a tie-breaker if necessary. Since an infinite number of theories can be generated for any given phenomenon (hence the need for Occam's Razor), it is impossible to fulfill his requirements for any scientific theory, even the theory of gravity.

This kind of argument is a classic example of the religious egocentrism that we have sadly come to expect from creationists. It assumes that creationism logically follows if evolution theory cannot be "proven" to their satisfaction. It contains the utterly absurd assumption that if there were no such thing as evolution theory, then a researcher would independently arrive at Biblical creationism, even if he were not schooled in Judeo-Christian thought! In the end, it is a mere rhetorical ploy, barely worthy of rebuttal.

As an aside, the tactic of demanding proof and then setting oneself up as the arbiter of that proof is also used by Holocaust deniers. If you are faced with this ploy (on the part of either creationists or holocaust deniers), a good tactic is to simply ask "what would you accept as evidence?" If a subject change is attempted, simply force the subject back to that central question: "what would you accept as evidence?"

You may be surprised to discover that when pushed, your opponent will have no answer. He will either become evasive or suggest a nonsensical form of evidence such as "direct observation of the moment of abiogenesis, four billion years ago", as if a time machine could be built for this purpose. Scientific theories are based on analysis of whatever evidence we can obtain, not an obstinate insistence upon particular forms of evidence which we can't obtain.

The natural creationist objection is to claim that indirect observations "don't count", but in reality, despite their ignorant expectations, countless scientific observations are indirect in nature. For example, we know that other stars in the universe have planets indirectly (through observation of gravitational perturbations) even though we can't travel there and see these planets for ourselves. We know that the Sun is powered by nuclear fusion indirectly (through observation of its mass, chemical composition, and output) even though we can't observe this process directly. We know about electrons indirectly (through their interaction with other forms of matter and energy) even though they're too small to see, even with a microscope. And finally, we know that life began on Earth billions of years ago (through observation of fossil patterns as well as geographical distribution of modern species) even though we can't travel back through time and watch it happen.



TOPICS: Miscellaneous; Philosophy
KEYWORDS: crevolist; sasu
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To: BMCDA
I hereby invoke the Godwin Rule and point out that "medved" has first used the term Nazi and therefore automatically loses the argument.
181 posted on 03/09/2002 7:09:53 PM PST by Doctor Stochastic
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To: AndrewC
This proves my point. Only those that believe as Quayle (and those subscribing to the Pledge) do are entitled to life and liberty. It seems that Quayle and the other Pledgees have do not consider people of other opinions worthy of life or liberty. It's good that Quayle is no longer a viable candidate for anything. I'm sorry that I supported him in the past.
182 posted on 03/09/2002 7:15:09 PM PST by Doctor Stochastic
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To: Doctor Stochastic
This proves my point. Only those that believe as Quayle (and those subscribing to the Pledge) do are entitled to life and liberty.

Only at the return of Christ. Are you suggesting that has occurred?

183 posted on 03/09/2002 7:34:35 PM PST by AndrewC
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To: JediGirl
...this will be refreshing.

That's a curious comment. Where are you, JediGirl? Weigh in. For myself, I'm not in the least interested.

184 posted on 03/09/2002 7:35:29 PM PST by Phaedrus
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To: Doctor Stochastic
Study of man's relationship with God through Scripture reveals that all men will suffer the first death, a physical death, the type of death which most agnostics and atheists might identify when they attend a funeral and burial service.

A second death, though is in store for those who reject God upon judgment. Said judgment is to occur after the first death and will be handed out by God.

For this reason, the acknowledgment of Scripture in no means poses a threat, and the statement of any man (other than Christ who is God incarnate, now risen) poses no threat to those who don't believe, but simply testifies to the truth which is made apparant to all persons.

The very concepts of life and liberty are provided in His plan, but those who reject Him also fall into a series of laws which will guarantee their demise.

There is no threat to life and liberty from Christians to those who have not accepted Him nor reject Him, although there remains significant threat from God to those who are lessor creatures and cast judgment on Him.

The meanings are not hidden, unlike the positions of those who seek the occult.

185 posted on 03/10/2002 4:37:15 AM PST by Cvengr
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To: Junior
So much of history is lost by those who ignore God and those who fail to study the saints and the Church.

The Dark Ages were so characterized by those who studied such things after the Dark Ages. A significant discernible feature between the times was the advent of the printing press and the Gutenberg Bible. The Reformation in great part discerns that period of time wherein the laity was denied access to Scripture, the Word of God, unless passed via the Catholic Church.

The title of Christian is not limited to those who are members of the Roman Catholic Church, but is discerned by the Holy Spirit for any who have faith in Him. Accordingly, the Dark Ages, were noted by the Reformers as specifically being a period within the Church Age where Christians (saints, believers, those with a relationship with God through Christ Jesus) were not allowed to have a relationship with Him by those from the Roman Catholic Church insofar as they could control events,...unless the saint followed the man-made rules of the church.

Accordingly, the Dark Ages were quite characterized by persecution of Christians. Perhaps at the hands of other Christians, perhaps in a confused state where 'protestants'(I use the term loosely to refer to saints not belonging to the Roman Catholic Church, but nonetheless had a believing relationship with God, whereas the term protestant refers more closely to Luther's edict nailed to the cathedral doors and the following century of secular development.) and atheists and agnostics may have fallen to physical malevolence from the Church, but primarily an emphasis existed where those who are seeking a righteous relationship with God were typically denied opportunities at the hands of fellow Christians.

It is generally more enlightening to study history from the point of view of those who made the history, while maintaining a wherewithal made easy from knowledge of concurrent and later events. The Dark Ages are a time of enormous historical expose, but rarely manifest by those who view the period as agnostic or atheist history.

Significance of Berkeley's noiseless tree or even the Cartesian, "Cogito ergo sum" take on considerable significance when compared to the previously accepted 'paradigms'.

How would a gnostic view these historical advents in comparison and their possible impact of history? Interestingly, Scripture has remained true throughout the millenia, and yet is still considered a threat by those who fail to seek a righteous relationship with God.

186 posted on 03/10/2002 5:09:58 AM PST by Cvengr
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To: Junior
I don't follow the Klingon' culture allusion,....no insult or argument intended, I just don't undestand your meaning. What do you mean?
187 posted on 03/10/2002 5:16:05 AM PST by Cvengr
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To: Rippin
What about the serious problems with the Creationist Theory. Blindly biased ye are a bit maybe?
188 posted on 03/10/2002 5:24:38 AM PST by Bear Bottoms
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To: Cvengr
3 basic premises:

1) If evolution theory is wrong, then the only alternative is Biblical creationism. All dissimilar creation myths are invalid.

The actual premise of most creationism generally accepts the literal interpretation of Scripture and that the Word of God will remain timelessly true. Even though Scripture is true, there is obviously quite a bit that might be studied outside of Scripture which might also be true, but not pertinent to the the communication of Scripture.

The Scriptural position which most 'creation-science' advocates follow is more likely to take Scripture as a universal truth, observe where other cultures might also advocate various myths and note the existential similarities to Scripture, while noting existential differences and favoring Scripture as reigning to a higher criterion of truth.

2) The Bible is representative of all religious creation stories, and Christianity is representative of all "major" religions. Whenever someone speaks of "religion", "spirituality", and "mysticism" we should assume that he is talking about Christianity.

The major premise is not as stated above, but that Scripture is assumed to be infallible and a great deal literal. Accordingly it also accepts the existence of the spiritual domain. It also recognizes people exist who have not yet heard of the Gospel nor have studied Scripture, but touch upon the spiritual domain when they have delved into religion and mysticism. They recognize some of these people may have become enslaved to deception and accordingly begin their arguments from the point of view of their opponents so as to focus on a path to retuen them to a known Truth. The premise is closer to believing all creation stories are rooted in Truth and the Scriptural Truth quickly guides those who seek the Truth to it directly.

3) Non-Christian beliefs are based on corrupted, immoral motivations, under the influence of Satan.

The statement fails to acknowledge the premise of faith. The Christian will acknowledge beliefs based upon Scripture, dedicated to God through Christ and submitting to His will are in the group of those things not corrupted. It's also recognized that without the defense of God, one is laid exposed to deception. Those who reject or haven't received Christ are then exposed to forces greater than they are able to conquer by their own acquiescence to such authority. Additionally, it is also recognized that some who reject Christ, attempt to glorify themselves in all forms of deception and relish their own ability to deceive. This acknowledgement is different than declaring the universal that ALL non-Christian beliefs are corrupted, but there also exists some theologic conclusions that indeed anything which removes itself wholly from God is intuitively corrupt.

189 posted on 03/10/2002 5:54:52 AM PST by Cvengr
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To: JediGirl
This again skips the real questions of science and only attacks creationists in ad hominem attacks, which makes me not feel the need to deal with another creation/evo thread. Post a relevant article sometime and maybe us creationists would listen.
190 posted on 03/10/2002 5:57:22 AM PST by rwfromkansas
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To: Dimensio
how is it disturbing to pledge allegiance to Christ?
191 posted on 03/10/2002 5:58:50 AM PST by rwfromkansas
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To: Exnihilo
Exactly. And with a reply to finally an astute comment, I am leaving this thread which will turn into only more trash.
192 posted on 03/10/2002 6:00:16 AM PST by rwfromkansas
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To: Cvengr
Klingons are always going on about "honor." Just seemed to fit, I guess.
193 posted on 03/10/2002 6:07:10 AM PST by Junior
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To: Cvengr
The Dark Ages were so characterized by those who studied such things after the Dark Ages. A significant discernible feature between the times was the advent of the printing press and the Gutenberg Bible.

Sorry, but the printing press in Europe and the Gutenberg Bible are products of the Late Middle Ages/Early Rennaissance, not the Dark Ages. The Dark Ages range from the fall of the Western Roman Empire (c. 476) to roughly the 10th century. The Middle Ages are from that point to about the middle to late 14th century (about the time gunpowder was introduced to Europe). The Gutenberg Bible was published, IIRC, sometime in the 15th century, placing it about a half millennium after the Dark Ages.

194 posted on 03/10/2002 6:35:08 AM PST by Junior
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To: Vercingetorix
You apparently didn't read my post. I never said all hominid fossils are hoaxes, I listed three specific ones that he shouldn't have bothered to post.

It has been shown that the vast majority (and I would say all of them) of fossils pointed to by scientists to be proof, have in fact, been debunked and retracted, and like Piltdown, yet still appear in textbooks and museums without any kinds of retractions and are still passed off as scientific proof.

What is clear is that no major human fossil discovery has ever been free of controversy and scientists who don't agree with the conclusions made by the discoverer. Interpretation and postulation don't seem to bring sicentists to the same conclusion, looking at the same evidence. Rather, it's what they believe about the fossil that shapes their opinion as to what it is and what its significance is. That's not objective science, but subjective interpretation.

Carl Sagan said it best, when adressing an annual American Association for the Advancement of Science conference, when he described how science works: "The most fundamental axioms and conclusions may be challenged and the prevailing hypothesis must survive confrontation with observation. Appeals to authority are impermissable, and experiments must be reproducible." Show me how evolution theory fits Carl's views of how science works - his views are the same as the ones I was taught in both high school and college science courses. It's not observable, it's not reproducible. Micro-evolution (variations within a species) is not sufficient to prove one species emerges from another. In the lab, scientists have tried for decades to introduce mutations into species to bring about evolutionary leaps, and in all cases, the mutated offspring are not better off than the previous generation. Mutations do not create new information, they alter existing information - that's why mutation is not able to create new species - it just shuffles what already exists.

The way you childishly name call others who don't hold your world view, or that you perceive to be less intelligent than you, indicates to me you really don't want to educate but rather silence anyone who doesn't think like you do.

195 posted on 03/10/2002 10:01:09 AM PST by Secret Agent Man
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To: rwfromkansas
how is it disturbing to pledge allegiance to Christ?

Did you not read my later post where I explained that my misgivings were based on the context of the quote, not the content?
196 posted on 03/10/2002 10:27:22 AM PST by Dimensio
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To: JediGirl; PatrickHenry; gore3000; medved; Physicist; RadioAstronomer; Junior; crevo_list
Common Creationist Arguments - Morality..

new thread bump.

197 posted on 03/10/2002 11:55:53 AM PST by JediGirl
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To: Secret Agent Man
"It has been shown that the vast majority (and I would say all of them) of fossils pointed to by scientists to be proof, have in fact, been debunked and retracted, and like Piltdown, yet still appear in textbooks and museums without any kinds of retractions and are still passed off as scientific proof." -- Secret Agent Man

Proof? Evidence is all that anyone ever claims with respect to a fossil discovery. You are still completely wrong about this (and I wonder what vast expertise you possess that prompts you to make a claim that all fossils are meaningless). Actually, I am still betting on the fact that your opinions on this subject are gleaned entirely from a small pamphlet published by Duane Gish.

Fossils prove conclusively that life on this planet has changed over time (primates are no exception). This is all that evolution means. If you have another explanation supported by other evidence (genetically similar species for example: Chimp and Human are 98% identical) to explain evolution without invoking variation, isolation, and selection I am sure that the world would love to hear it. But if all you've got to go on is the fact that a Babylonian born Hebrew rewrote a Persian origin myth in 400BC then why bother feigning an interest in science?

"What is clear is that no major human fossil discovery has ever been free of controversy and scientists who don't agree with the conclusions made by the discoverer." -- Secret Agent Man

Relatively little controversy (and those are generally of a trivial nature) surrounds these discoveries where the experts are concerned. On the other hand, practically every fossil is controversial to bozos like Duane Gish and Henry Morrison. What these guys imagine is controversial was largely laid to rest by the real scientific community about 100 years ago. Nothing has changed since except the accumulation of ever more powerful evidence for and proof of the necessity of evolutionary change by means of natural selection.

"Show me how evolution theory fits Carl's views of how science works - his views are the same as the ones I was taught in both high school and college science courses. It's not observable, it's not reproducible." -- Secret Agent Man

Carl said, "...prevailing hypothesis must survive confrontation with observation." Evolution is the single most thoroughly documented fact known to man. Every observation (this includes fossil discoveries) to date has been found to accord perfectly with evolution. There is no doubt at all that species are mutable, and that they suffer extinction. The Auroch is gone but so too are the Neanderthals that hunted them. If evolution were not possible then artificial selection would not have permitted man to direct the evolution of his domestic species merely by selecting which ones were allowed to reproduce.

You might claim that artificial selection is just micro-evolution and that no new species were produced. Try mating a Great Dane with a Pekinese if you doubt that speciation is possible. On the other hand, you could successfully cross a Llama with a Dromedary Camel thus proving that these two species, genetically isolated for 30 million years, can still interbreed. This possibility is predicted by evolution theory because the two species descended from a common ancestor. What is your explanation for these phenomenon?

"Mutations do not create new information, they alter existing information - that's why mutation is not able to create new species - it just shuffles what already exists." -- Secret Agent Man

Which is why the genome is mostly junk. This is a prediction of evolution theory and has been observed and measured most recently during the Human Genome Project. The evolutionary history of the species is written in that junk. You don't even have to sequence the stuff to prove relationships between species. You can just look at the anaphase chromosomes under the microscope to identify structure, number, and chromatin banding patterns. Take a look at the human and chimp chromosomes with a list of all the major chromosomal changes and see what that experience does to your confidence that evolution is not possible. Incidentally, the Chinese performed a Human/Chimp cross during the Cultural Revolution and published the results in a Chinese language journal. International abhorrence ended the experiments (or at least the publications). The offspring apparently did not make it to term because of morphological dissimilarities. With a little manipulation and chromosome matching the experiment would likely be more successful today and they may well be doing it despite the ethical objections from the West.

"The way you childishly name call others who don't hold your world view, or that you perceive to be less intelligent than you, indicates to me you really don't want to educate but rather silence anyone who doesn't think like you do." -- Secret Agent Man

I am not an educator. I work in a factory making auto parts. Things that don't work properly drive me nuts and sometimes the only way to fix something is to bang on it with a hammer. If you don't want to be called a name (liar, for example) then don't tell lies. That should be simple enough. Then again, if you are going to insist on making statements that everyone else knows are false you should at least preface your remarks by saying, "I believe..." or "My guess is that..." or "Duane Gish says..."

198 posted on 03/10/2002 6:19:42 PM PST by Vercingetorix
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To: Vercingetorix
"Proof? Evidence is all that anyone ever claims with respect to a fossil discovery. "

Evidence alone is not science. Science provides many proofs - experiments, applications, and analysis. Paleontology provides none of that. You cannot tell what a species looked like from a tooth, an ankle bone, or even an entire skeleton. For example we have plenty of skeletons of dinosaurs yet we do not know if they had hair, feathers, scales, green, brown or purple skin, whether they had mammary glands, and many other important questions which are absolutely critical in determining descent of one species from another.

199 posted on 03/10/2002 7:58:52 PM PST by gore3000
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To: VadeRetro
" If they turn up you either have a hoax, a misinterpretation, or something is really wrong with what we think we know.

Yup, when someone finds the blue dress is when they admit they were wrong, not before. Even then, they never apologize for mistatements, they never acknowledge they were wrong and they keep telling lies which have been discovered for decades afterwards - such as Haeckel's phony drawings of embryos. Evolutionists have a very big credibility problem.

200 posted on 03/10/2002 8:04:23 PM PST by gore3000
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